http://errancywiki.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Ohuxanizapu&feedformat=atomErrancy Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T05:01:31ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.0http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Luke_20&diff=49752Talk:Luke 202010-11-18T00:20:57Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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</div></div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=1_John_1:1&diff=497511 John 1:12010-11-18T00:18:56Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[1 John 1]] > [[1 John 1:2|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=1&verse=1&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20john%201;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%20John&chapter=1&verse=1 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=1%20John+1.1 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B62C001.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/1%20John_Chapter_1,_Verse_1 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_22:13&diff=49750Isaiah 22:132010-11-17T22:25:28Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Isaiah 22:12|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 22]] > [[Isaiah 22:14|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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and behold, joy and gladness, slaying oxen and killing sheep, eating flesh and drinking wine: let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we shall die. (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=22&verse=13&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2022:13;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah22.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=22&verse=13 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+22.13 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_22,_Verse_13 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_26:5&diff=49749Isaiah 26:52010-11-17T22:24:11Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Isaiah 26:4|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 26]] > [[Isaiah 26:6|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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For he hath brought down them that dwell on high, the lofty city: he layeth it low, he layeth it low even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust. (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=26&verse=5&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2026:5;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah26.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=26&verse=5 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+26.5 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_26,_Verse_5 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Luke_1:6&diff=49748Luke 1:62010-11-17T22:23:49Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Luke 1:5|Previous Verse]] < [[Luke 1]] > [[Luke 1:7|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Luk&chapter=1&verse=6&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=luke%201:6;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke1.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Luke&chapter=1&verse=6 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Luke+1.6 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B42C001.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Luke_Chapter_1,_Verse_6 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_32:14&diff=49747Isaiah 32:142010-11-17T22:23:37Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Isaiah 32:13|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 32]] > [[Isaiah 32:15|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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For the palace shall be forsaken; the populous city shall be deserted; the hill and the watch-tower shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=32&verse=14&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2032:14;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah32.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=32&verse=14 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+32.14 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_32,_Verse_14 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Job_33&diff=49746Talk:Job 332010-11-17T22:22:48Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Isaiah 32:6|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 32]] > [[Isaiah 32:8|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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And the instruments of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the meek with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right. (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=32&verse=7&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2032:7;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah32.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=32&verse=7 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+32.7 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_32,_Verse_7 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_26:5&diff=49744Isaiah 26:52010-11-17T22:22:46Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Isaiah 26:4|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 26]] > [[Isaiah 26:6|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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For he hath brought down them that dwell on high, the lofty city: he layeth it low, he layeth it low even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust. (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=26&verse=5&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2026:5;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah26.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=26&verse=5 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+26.5 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_26,_Verse_5 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Division&diff=49743Talk:Division2010-11-17T22:22:33Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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</div></div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Job_8:7&diff=49742Job 8:72010-11-17T22:22:21Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Job 8:6|Previous Verse]] < [[Job 8]] > [[Job 8:8|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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And though thy beginning was small, Yet thy latter end would greatly increase. (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Job&chapter=8&verse=7&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=job%208:7;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/job8.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Job&chapter=8&verse=7 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Job+8.7 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Job_Chapter_8,_Verse_7 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Hosea_9:8&diff=49741Hosea 9:82010-11-17T22:22:15Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Hosea 9:7|Previous Verse]] < [[Hosea 9]] > [[Hosea 9:9|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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Ephraim [was] a watchman with my God: as for the prophet, a fowler`s snare is in all his ways, [and] enmity in the house of his God. (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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==Con==<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Hsa&chapter=9&verse=8&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=hosea%209:8;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hosea/hosea9.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Hosea&chapter=9&verse=8 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Hosea+9.8 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Hosea_Chapter_9,_Verse_8 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:2_Corinthians_11&diff=49740Talk:2 Corinthians 112010-11-17T22:22:14Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Isaiah 21:10|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 21]] > [[Isaiah 21:12|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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The burden of Dumah. One calleth unto me out of Seir, Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night? (ASV)<br />
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>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=21&verse=11&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2021:11;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah21.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=21&verse=11 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+21.11 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_21,_Verse_11 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Micah_1&diff=49738Talk:Micah 12010-11-17T22:22:07Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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</div></div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_37:1&diff=49737Isaiah 37:12010-11-17T22:22:06Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Isaiah 36:22|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 37]] > [[Isaiah 37:2|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of Jehovah. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=37&verse=1&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2037:1;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah37.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=37&verse=1 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+37.1 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_37,_Verse_1 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=John_7:47&diff=49736John 7:472010-11-17T22:22:02Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[John 7:46|Previous Verse]] < [[John 7]] > [[John 7:48|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
The Pharisees therefore answered them, Are ye also led astray? (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=7&verse=47&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=john%207:47;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john7.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=John&chapter=7&verse=47 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=John+7.47 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B43C007.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/John_Chapter_7,_Verse_47 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Joel_2:9&diff=49735Joel 2:92010-11-17T22:21:49Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Joel 2:8|Previous Verse]] < [[Joel 2]] > [[Joel 2:10|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
They leap upon the city; they run upon the wall; they climb up into the houses; they enter in at the windows like a thief. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Joe&chapter=2&verse=9&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=joel%202:9;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/joel/joel2.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Joel&chapter=2&verse=9 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Joel+2.9 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Joel_Chapter_2,_Verse_9 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=2_Peter_2:1&diff=497342 Peter 2:12010-11-17T22:21:41Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[2 Peter 1:21|Previous Verse]] < [[2 Peter 2]] > [[2 Peter 2:2|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=2&verse=1&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=2%20peter%202:1;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2peter/2peter2.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=2%20Peter&chapter=2&verse=1 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=2%20Peter+2.1 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B61C002.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/2%20Peter_Chapter_2,_Verse_1 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Job_7:13&diff=49733Job 7:132010-11-17T22:21:34Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Job 7:12|Previous Verse]] < [[Job 7]] > [[Job 7:14|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
When I say, My bed shall comfort me, My couch shall ease my complaint; (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Job&chapter=7&verse=13&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=job%207:13;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/job7.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Job&chapter=7&verse=13 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Job+7.13 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Job_Chapter_7,_Verse_13 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Psalms_40:3&diff=49732Psalms 40:32010-11-17T22:21:33Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Psalms 40:2|Previous Verse]] < [[Psalms 40]] > [[Psalms 40:4|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: Many shall see it, and fear, And shall trust in Jehovah. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Psa&chapter=40&verse=3&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=psalms%2040:3;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm40.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Psalms&chapter=40&verse=3 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Psalms+40.3 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Psalms_Chapter_40,_Verse_3 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Joel_2:2&diff=49731Joel 2:22010-11-17T22:21:30Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Joel 2:1|Previous Verse]] < [[Joel 2]] > [[Joel 2:3|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the dawn spread upon the mountains; a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after them, even to the years of many generations. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Joe&chapter=2&verse=2&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=joel%202:2;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/joel/joel2.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Joel&chapter=2&verse=2 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Joel+2.2 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Joel_Chapter_2,_Verse_2 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Psalms_146:4&diff=49730Psalms 146:42010-11-17T22:21:23Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Psalms 146:3|Previous Verse]] < [[Psalms 146]] > [[Psalms 146:5|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Psa&chapter=146&verse=4&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=psalms%20146:4;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm146.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Psalms&chapter=146&verse=4 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Psalms+146.4 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Psalms_Chapter_146,_Verse_4 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_53&diff=49729Isaiah 532010-11-17T22:21:12Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>>==Pro==<br />
'''[[Isaiah 52|Previous Chapter]] &lt; [[Isaiah]] &gt; [[Isaiah 54|Next Chapter]]'''<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:1]] Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:2]] For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:3]] He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:4]] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:5]] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:6]] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:7]] He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:8]] By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who [among them] considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke [was due]?<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:9]] And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:10]] Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:11]] He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.<br />
<br />
[[Isaiah 53:12]] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.<br />
<br />
<br />
Few Christians realize that the Chapter designations in the Tanakh<br />
and Christian Bibles are Christian MidEvil creations and not part of<br />
the original writings. Jewish Bibles, such as the JPS, generally make<br />
this known in the preface:<br />
<br />
&quot;The chapter divisions, whose origin is neither ancient nor Jewish<br />
but medieval Christian, sometimes join or separate the wrong<br />
paragraphs, sentences, or even parts of sentences.&quot;<br />
<br />
Although I have faith that it exists somewhere I have never seen a<br />
Christian Bible indicate that the Chapter divisions it contained were<br />
not original.<br />
<br />
Christianity created Chapter divisions primarily for convenience of<br />
reference but also used them as a theological weapon to try and give<br />
portions of the Bible a Christological meaning where the original<br />
author may not have intended such a grouping. By not indicating that<br />
the Chapter designations are not original, the Christian Bible can<br />
give the misleading impression that the Chapter designations were<br />
used by the original authors to group and separate messages.<br />
<br />
Perhaps the best example of this is Isaiah 53. Christian polemics is based mainly on proof-texting and by giving the appearance, through Chapter designation, that Isaiah 53 is a segregated prophecy, the Christians can insulate themselves from the fact that Isaiah 52 clearly flows into Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 54 clearly flows from Isaiah 53 and based on context, both Chapters clearly identify Israel as the subject.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 13:54, 1 Jan 2007 (CST)<br />
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==Con==<br />
The complaint is that "Christian polemics [says]...that Isaiah 53 is a segregated prophecy,...both Chapters clearly identify Israel as the subject."<br />
<br />
This seems to be a strawman constructed to address an issue that does not exist. Isaiah 52 speaks of the salvation of Israel, Isaiah 53, speaks of the means of that salvation, and Isaiah 54 speaks of the comfort of salvation. Christian polemics identifies Christ as the subject of Isaiah 53 consistent with that which Jesus taught.<br />
<br />
PRO should identify sources for his claims that Christians claim that (1) Isaiah 53 being a segregated prophecy and (2) that Isaiah 52-54 is not about Israel.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=10&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2053:10;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah53.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=53&verse=10 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+53.10 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_53,_Verse_10 BibleWiki]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Isaiah]]<br />
[[Category:Transmission]]<br />
[[Category:Pro]]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Psalms_40:3&diff=49728Psalms 40:32010-11-17T22:21:04Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Psalms 40:2|Previous Verse]] < [[Psalms 40]] > [[Psalms 40:4|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: Many shall see it, and fear, And shall trust in Jehovah. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Psa&chapter=40&verse=3&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=psalms%2040:3;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm40.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Psalms&chapter=40&verse=3 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Psalms+40.3 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Psalms_Chapter_40,_Verse_3 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Job_38:41&diff=49727Job 38:412010-11-17T22:21:01Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Job 38:40|Previous Verse]] < [[Job 38]] > [[Job 39:1|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
Who provideth for the raven his prey, When his young ones cry unto God, [And] wander for lack of food? (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Job&chapter=38&verse=41&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=job%2038:41;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/job38.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Job&chapter=38&verse=41 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Job+38.41 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Job_Chapter_38,_Verse_41 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_26:14&diff=49726Isaiah 26:142010-11-17T22:20:51Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Isaiah 26:13|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 26]] > [[Isaiah 26:15|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
[They are] dead, they shall not live; [they are] deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all remembrance of them to perish. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=26&verse=14&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2026:14;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah26.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=26&verse=14 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+26.14 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_26,_Verse_14 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Numbers_33:7&diff=49725Numbers 33:72010-11-17T22:20:49Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Numbers 33:6|Previous Verse]] < [[Numbers 33]] > [[Numbers 33:8|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And they journeyed from Etham, and turned back unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baal-zephon: and they encamped before Migdol. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Num&chapter=33&verse=7&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=numbers%2033:7;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/numbers/numbers33.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Numbers&chapter=33&verse=7 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Numbers+33.7 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Numbers_Chapter_33,_Verse_7 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Isaiah_32:18&diff=49724Isaiah 32:182010-11-17T22:20:40Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Isaiah 32:17|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 32]] > [[Isaiah 32:19|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And my people shall abide in a peaceable habitation, and in safe dwellings, and in quiet resting-places. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=32&verse=18&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2032:18;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah32.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=32&verse=18 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+32.18 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_32,_Verse_18 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Job_7:4&diff=49723Job 7:42010-11-17T22:20:28Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Job 7:3|Previous Verse]] < [[Job 7]] > [[Job 7:5|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? And I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Job&chapter=7&verse=4&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=job%207:4;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/job7.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Job&chapter=7&verse=4 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Job+7.4 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Job_Chapter_7,_Verse_4 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=2_Kings_14:5&diff=497222 Kings 14:52010-11-17T22:20:03Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[2 Kings 14:4|Previous Verse]] < [[2 Kings 14]] > [[2 Kings 14:6|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And it came to pass, as soon as the kingdom was established in his hand, that he slew his servants who had slain the king his father: (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=14&verse=5&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=2%20kings%2014:5;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2kings/2kings14.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=2%20Kings&chapter=14&verse=5 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=2%20Kings+14.5 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/2%20Kings_Chapter_14,_Verse_5 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=2_Peter_1:1&diff=497212 Peter 1:12010-11-17T22:19:59Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[2 Peter 1]] > [[2 Peter 1:2|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and [the] Saviour Jesus Christ: (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=1&verse=1&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=2%20peter%201:1;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2peter/2peter1.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=2%20Peter&chapter=1&verse=1 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=2%20Peter+1.1 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B61C001.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/2%20Peter_Chapter_1,_Verse_1 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=1_Corinthians_14:35&diff=497201 Corinthians 14:352010-11-17T22:19:26Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[1 Corinthians 14:34|Previous Verse]] < [[1 Corinthians 14]] > [[1 Corinthians 14:36|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Verses 34 through 36 may have been added to 1 Corinthians by later Christians scribes. There are a several reasons why many scholars suspect this to be the case. <br />
<br />
First, in our oldest manuscripts, these verses are sometimes placed in different places, such as at the end of the chapter (after verse 1Cor 14:40). <br />
<br />
Secondly, they interrupt the topic so that 1 Cor 14 flows better without them. This can be seen by comparing the passage with and without them:<br />
<br />
<br />
With 34-36:<br />
<br />
''31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.'' <br />
''As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.'' <br />
''36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.''<br />
''39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.''<br />
<br />
<br />
Without 33-36:<br />
<br />
''31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, if anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. ''<br />
''39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.''<br />
<br />
<br />
Before verses 33-36, Paul is talking about how to have orderly prophecy. After verses 33-36, Paul is talking about how to have orderly prophecy. <br />
<br />
<br />
Third, we don�t have 1st, 2nd or 3rd century manuscripts of this section of Corinthians, so Christian scribes had a long time during which they could have added these verses and we wouldn't be able to see the change. Our oldest manuscript that has this section of Corinthians is from the 4th century, about 300 years after Paul probably wrote 1 Corinthians. Of course, it only takes a minute to change a text.<br />
<br />
<br />
Fourth, verses 33-36 don�t fit with what Paul says just three chapters earlier (in chapter 11), where he says that women '''can''' prophesy as long as they cover their heads. <br />
<br />
<br />
Verses 33-36 mirror what is said in 1Tm 2:11. Scholars have long recognized that 1Tm is probably not actually by Paul (though it claims to be by Paul), but is a forgery. Perhaps Christian Scribes, knowing what �Paul� says in 1Tm, and agreeing with it themselves (if they didn�t like women speaking in church), added verses 33-36 in the margin, after which some later scribes incorporated it into the text, sometimes after verse 33, sometimes after verse 40? That seems to be a plausible explanation of the four points above.<br />
<br />
<br />
(The description above is repeated for verses 33-36 inclusive)<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=14&verse=35&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2014:35;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%20Corinthians&chapter=14&verse=35 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=1%20Corinthians+14.35 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B46C014.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/1%20Corinthians_Chapter_14,_Verse_35 BibleWiki]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:1 Corinthians]]<br />
[[Category:Transmission]]<br />
[[Category:Pro]]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Isaiah_61&diff=49719Talk:Isaiah 612010-11-17T22:19:21Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>'''[[Isaiah 37:15|Previous Verse]] < [[Isaiah 37]] > [[Isaiah 37:17|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
O Jehovah of hosts, the God of Israel, that sittest [above] the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
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==Neutral==<br />
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<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=37&verse=16&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=isaiah%2037:16;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah37.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Isaiah&chapter=37&verse=16 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Isaiah+37.16 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Isaiah_Chapter_37,_Verse_16 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Song_of_Solomon_3&diff=49717Talk:Song of Solomon 32010-11-17T22:19:15Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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</div></div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=2_Kings_5:7&diff=497162 Kings 5:72010-11-17T22:19:07Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[2 Kings 5:6|Previous Verse]] < [[2 Kings 5]] > [[2 Kings 5:8|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? but consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=5&verse=7&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=2%20kings%205:7;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2kings/2kings5.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=2%20Kings&chapter=5&verse=7 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=2%20Kings+5.7 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/2%20Kings_Chapter_5,_Verse_7 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:1_Thessalonians_1&diff=49715Talk:1 Thessalonians 12010-11-17T22:19:05Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<hr />
<div>'''[[Jeremiah 51:9|Previous Verse]] < [[Jeremiah 51]] > [[Jeremiah 51:11|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
Jehovah hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of Jehovah our God. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jer&chapter=51&verse=10&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=jeremiah%2051:10;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/jeremiah/jeremiah51.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Jeremiah&chapter=51&verse=10 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Jeremiah+51.10 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Jeremiah_Chapter_51,_Verse_10 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Romans_9:15&diff=49713Romans 9:152010-11-17T22:18:46Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Romans 9:14|Previous Verse]] < [[Romans 9]] > [[Romans 9:16|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=15&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=romans%209:15;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Romans&chapter=9&verse=15 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Romans+9.15 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B45C009.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Romans_Chapter_9,_Verse_15 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Category:Other&diff=49712Category:Other2010-11-17T22:18:40Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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<div>>This is for miscellaneous items that people have commented on.<br />
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<hr />
<div>>'''[[1 Thessalonians 4|Previous Chapter]] &lt; [[1 Thessalonians]] &gt; [[1 Thessalonians 6|Next Chapter]]'''<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:1]] But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:2]] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:3]] When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:4]] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:5]] for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:6]] so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:7]] For they that sleep sleep in the night: and they that are drunken are drunken in the night.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:8]] But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:9]] For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:10]] who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:11]] Wherefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as also ye do.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:12]] But we beseech you, brethren, to know them that labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:13]] and to esteem them exceeding highly in love for their work`s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:14]] And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be longsuffering toward all.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:15]] See that none render unto any one evil for evil; but always follow after that which is good, one toward another, and toward all.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:16]] Rejoice always;<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:17]] pray without ceasing;<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:18]] in everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus to you-ward.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:19]] Quench not the Spirit;<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:20]] despise not prophesyings;<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:21]] prove all things; hold fast that which is good;<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:22]] abstain from every form of evil.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:23]] And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:24]] Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:25]] Brethren, pray for us.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:26]] Salute all the brethren with a holy kiss.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:27]] I adjure you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the brethren.<br />
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[[1 Thessalonians 5:28]] The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.<br />
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<hr />
<div>'''[[1 Corinthians 14:34|Previous Verse]] < [[1 Corinthians 14]] > [[1 Corinthians 14:36|Next Verse]]'''<br />
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And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Verses 34 through 36 may have been added to 1 Corinthians by later Christians scribes. There are a several reasons why many scholars suspect this to be the case. <br />
<br />
First, in our oldest manuscripts, these verses are sometimes placed in different places, such as at the end of the chapter (after verse 1Cor 14:40). <br />
<br />
Secondly, they interrupt the topic so that 1 Cor 14 flows better without them. This can be seen by comparing the passage with and without them:<br />
<br />
<br />
With 34-36:<br />
<br />
''31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.'' <br />
''As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.'' <br />
''36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.''<br />
''39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.''<br />
<br />
<br />
Without 33-36:<br />
<br />
''31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, if anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. ''<br />
''39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.''<br />
<br />
<br />
Before verses 33-36, Paul is talking about how to have orderly prophecy. After verses 33-36, Paul is talking about how to have orderly prophecy. <br />
<br />
<br />
Third, we don�t have 1st, 2nd or 3rd century manuscripts of this section of Corinthians, so Christian scribes had a long time during which they could have added these verses and we wouldn't be able to see the change. Our oldest manuscript that has this section of Corinthians is from the 4th century, about 300 years after Paul probably wrote 1 Corinthians. Of course, it only takes a minute to change a text.<br />
<br />
<br />
Fourth, verses 33-36 don�t fit with what Paul says just three chapters earlier (in chapter 11), where he says that women '''can''' prophesy as long as they cover their heads. <br />
<br />
<br />
Verses 33-36 mirror what is said in 1Tm 2:11. Scholars have long recognized that 1Tm is probably not actually by Paul (though it claims to be by Paul), but is a forgery. Perhaps Christian Scribes, knowing what �Paul� says in 1Tm, and agreeing with it themselves (if they didn�t like women speaking in church), added verses 33-36 in the margin, after which some later scribes incorporated it into the text, sometimes after verse 33, sometimes after verse 40? That seems to be a plausible explanation of the four points above.<br />
<br />
<br />
(The description above is repeated for verses 33-36 inclusive)<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=14&verse=35&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2014:35;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%20Corinthians&chapter=14&verse=35 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=1%20Corinthians+14.35 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B46C014.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/1%20Corinthians_Chapter_14,_Verse_35 BibleWiki]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:1 Corinthians]]<br />
[[Category:Transmission]]<br />
[[Category:Pro]]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=1_Kings_7:23&diff=497091 Kings 7:232010-11-17T22:18:14Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[1 Kings 7:22|Previous Verse]] < [[1 Kings 7]] > [[1 Kings 7:24|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And he made the molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and the height thereof was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits compassed it round about. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
I will grant the arguments given in the Con and Neutral sections of this entry would be convincing were it not for one fact. In the pre-Islamic Era, before the creation of the concept of zero and decimal fractions, all mathematics were integer mathematics.<br />
<br />
Unfortunately for the author of the Pro section, the error (pi=3) persists even in an all-integer mathematical regime because the measured circumference of a ten cubit vessel would be given as 31 cubits. Likewise, I can't see the authors of the Masoretic texts using approximate measurements to describe one of the most sacred items in their religion (a large vessel used in Solomon's Temple).<br />
<br />
In short, this is an error of fact.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
The dimensions of the molten sea are provided in two places in the Bible.<br />
<br />
“And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference…It was a handbreadth thick; and its brim was shaped like the brim of a cup, like a lily blossom.” (1 Kings 7:23,26)<br />
<br />
Then he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference…It was a handbreadth thick; and its brim was shaped like the brim of a cup, like a lily blossom. (2 Chronicles 4:2,5)<br />
<br />
Both sources agree on the dimensions of the molten sea.<br />
<br />
1. It was ten cubits from one brim to the other.<br />
<br />
2. A line of thirty cubits measured its circumference<br />
<br />
3. It was a handbreadth thick.<br />
<br />
4. Its height was five cubits.<br />
<br />
Ten cubits measures the diameter from brim to brim or the outside on the sea. The brim was shaped like a lily blossom so the top would curve outward all around. The circumference of the outside of the sea along the brim is 10 x Pi = 31.4 cubits.<br />
<br />
A line of thirty cubits measured its circumference. This is the inside measurement below the point where the brim curves outward. The inside diameter of sea is 30 / Pi = 9.55 cubits<br />
<br />
The sea was a handbreadth thick. We are not told the measurement of a handbreadth in cubits so it does not matter. It would not be more than 10 – 9.55 = 0.45 cubits or not more than 8-9 inches based on an 18 inch cubit. Any person can use his own hand to measure this and make the sea as thick as his hand. The handbreadth would then determine the outward curvature of the brim.<br />
<br />
To see a picture of the molten sea and the dimensions plus a more detailed description, go here— [http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/pi.asp]<br />
<br />
Given the above information, anyone can build an exact replica of the molten sea.<br />
<br />
There is no conflict with the measurement of Pi in the calculations.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Someone has said that this verse contains a mathematical error, since it says that the diameter is 10 and the circumference is 30, implying that pi=3.<br />
<br />
But either the measurements were exact, or they were approximate.<br />
<br />
If they were exact, then certainly the diameter and circumference should reveal the pi relation. If they were approximate, then this is not an issue.<br />
<br />
I noticed in verses 24-26, it says there is a graven work under the brim, and that the brim was like the leaf of a crisped lilly. Could that mean there was an overhanging ledge?<br />
<br />
I did some calulations, and find that if the brim overhung the ledge by about 4.1 inches (assuming 1 cubit=18 inches), then the numbers work out, since the diameter of the portion below the rim would then be less than 10 cubits. For a pool that is 15 feet in diameter, a ledge that wide makes sense.<br />
<br />
<br />
But this is just one possibility. The point is that no error, no deception, and no fraud is involved in Holy Scriptures.<br />
<br />
The above last paragraph is pointless. If someone seriously believes that, then why bother with any other discussion, or even go to an errancy webpage? -Equinox 7.27.06<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Actually, this verse doesn't mention or even imply the PI at all. It only states two measurements, the circumference and the diameter. As far as the writer and the readers are concerned, there might or might not be such an entity as a PI; that is not even a side issue in the text. If we decide to call the relation of the circumference to the diameter a PI (as geometricians have done), that is one thing, but we can't reasonably expect to get an accurate value for PI in this kind of a text.<br />
<br />
See [http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52573.html here] for Sam Gibson fudging and fumbling about the issue with real mathematicians.<br />
--[[User:Jjmarkka|jjmarkka]] 09:23, 11 Nov 2005 (CST)<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Ki&chapter=7&verse=23&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20kings%207:23;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1kings/1kings7.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%20Kings&chapter=7&verse=23 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=1%20Kings+7.23 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/1%20Kings_Chapter_7,_Verse_23 BibleWiki]<br />
*[http://www.inerrancyexposed.com/molten_sea.html InerrancyExposed.com] on the molten sea<br />
<br />
[[Category:Science]]<br />
[[Category:1 Kings]]<br />
[[Category:Con]]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=1_John_5:2&diff=497081 John 5:22010-11-17T22:18:06Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[1 John 5:1|Previous Verse]] < [[1 John 5]] > [[1 John 5:3|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=5&verse=2&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20john%202;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%20John&chapter=5&verse=2 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=1%20John+5.2 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B62C005.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/1%20John_Chapter_5,_Verse_2 BibleWiki]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Matthew_1:17&diff=49707Matthew 1:172010-11-17T22:17:41Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Matthew 1:16|Previous Verse]] < [[Matthew 1]] > [[Matthew 1:18|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations; and from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
<br />
>===Only 13 generations from Babylon until Jesus===<br />
<br />
====Authority====<br />
<br />
=====Raymond Brown=====<br />
<br />
=====Bart Ehrman=====<br />
<br />
Ehrman points out in ''Jesus, Interrupted'' that there are only 13 generations from Babylon to Jesus in &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; list. Ehrman also points out that &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; shows 42 generations between Abraham and Jesus while &amp;quot;Luke&amp;quot; shows 57 generations between Abraham and Jesus. Additionally, Ehrman gives a good reason for the different genealogies. &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; is primarily interested in showing Jesus descended from Abraham, to give a '''Jewish''' emphasis while &amp;quot;Luke&amp;quot; is primarily interested in showing Jesus descended from Adam, to give a '''Gentile''' emphasis<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
&amp;quot;So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations; and from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.&amp;quot;<br />
<br />
But according to 1 Chronicles:<br />
<br />
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Chronicles_3<br />
<br />
Solomon<br />
Rehoboam<br />
Abijah<br />
Asa<br />
Jehoshaphat<br />
Joram<br />
Ahaziah<br />
Joash<br />
Amaziah<br />
Azariah<br />
Jotham<br />
Ahaz<br />
Hezekiah<br />
Manasseh<br />
Amon<br />
Josiah<br />
Jehoiakim<br />
Jeconiah<br />
<br />
There were 18 names from David to the Exile. <br />
<br />
In the Appeal to Authority category:<br />
<br />
Raymond Brown, &amp;quot;The Birth Of The Messiah&amp;quot;, Page 82, &amp;quot;If there is truth in the theory expounded above that Matthew found the basis for his pattern of fourteen in genealogical lists that served as his sources, then the lists were already in Greek and already contained errors.&amp;quot;<br />
<br />
The International Critical Commentary is not sure what to make of it suggesting that &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; may have used an acceptable literary convention of the time. Brown comments on supposed parallels as follows, Page 81, &amp;quot;To be sure, none of these enumerations is so deliberate as Matthew's&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
In the Appeal to Apologist category, JP Holding, &amp;quot;The Birth Of The Meshugas&amp;quot;, Page 1, &amp;quot;Same dip, different day. See #5 above. Normal stuff, not an error. Matthew has split into blocks of 14 so as to match the Hebrew sum for the numerical equivalent to the name David (14), and to match the breaks with significant events in Jewish history, and this is a &amp;quot;pedagogical device&amp;quot; as Glenn Miller has noted.&amp;quot; <br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Now the Greek of 1:17:<br />
<br />
&amp;quot;????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??????????? ????????? ?????? ???????????? ??? ??? ??? ??????????? ????????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????????&amp;quot;<br />
<br />
Note that &amp;quot;?????&amp;quot; (all) is the first word on the left. <br />
<br />
Now for usage in the Christian Bible:<br />
{el}&amp;quot;?????&amp;quot;{/}<br />
46 Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 27th ed., with GRAMCORD(TM) Greek New Testament Alpha Morphological Database and McReynolds English Interlinear (16 occurrences in 14 articles) <br />
Chapter 1 ?[Matthew 1:17]? 1 <br />
<br />
Chapter 10 ?[Matthew 10:30]? 2 <br />
<br />
Chapter 13 ?[Matthew 13:56]? 3 <br />
<br />
Chapter 24 ?[Matthew 24:30]? 4 <br />
<br />
Chapter 25 ?(2)? ?[Matthew 25:5]? 5 <br />
<br />
Chapter 1 ?[Luke 1:48]? 6 <br />
<br />
Chapter 12 ?[Luke 12:7]? 7 <br />
<br />
Chapter 3 ?[Acts 3:25]? 8 <br />
<br />
Chapter 9 ?[Acts 9:39]? 9 <br />
<br />
Chapter 16 ?[Acts 16:26]? 10 <br />
<br />
Chapter 27 ?[Acts 27:37]? 11 <br />
<br />
Chapter 16 ?(2)? ?[Romans 16:4]? 12 <br />
<br />
Chapter 1 ?[Revelation 1:7]? 13 <br />
<br />
Chapter 2 ?[Revelation 2:23]? <br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Most of the uses of &amp;quot;?????&amp;quot; above are literal with identification of individual components and their complete and unified inclusive relationship to the total. A few uses are figurative qualifying the relationship to only those individual components that are present. <br />
<br />
Now on to BDAG (it's my BDAG Baby): <br />
<br />
&amp;quot;???, ????, ??? gen. ??????, ?????, ?????? (dat. pl. ???? and ????? vary considerably in the mss.; s. W-S. �5, 28; cp. Rob. 219�21; on the use of the art. s. B-D-F � 275) (Hom. +).<br />
? pert. to totality with focus on its individual components, each, every, any<br />
? adj., used w. a noun without the art.<br />
?. in the sing. emphasizing the individual members of the class denoted by the noun every, each, any, scarcely different in mng. fr. the pl. �all�: ??? ??????? Mt 3:10; Lk 3:9. ???? ?????? Mt 15:13. ???? ??????, ??? ???? Lk 3:5 (Is 40:4). ??? ????? 4:37. ??? ???????? J 1:9; 2:10; Ro 3:4 (Ps 115:2); Gal 5:3; Col 1:28abd; Js 1:19. ???? ???? GJs 11:2. ??? ????? Ac 17:26a. ???? ???? (Pla., Phdr. 249e) 2:43; 3:23 (cp. Lev 23:29); Ro 2:9; Jd 15. ???? ????? Ac 5:42; 17:17. ??? ???????? 18:4. ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? 1 Cor 15:24 (cp. Just., D. 111, 2 ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??????). ???? ?????????? 2 Cor 4:2. ??? ????? Phil 4:21. ??? ????? Hb 3:4 (GJs 7:3). ???? ????????? 7:7. ???? ??????? all discipline 12:11. ??? ???????? Rv 1:7a. ??? ?????? 5:13a.�Mt 23:35; Lk 2:23 (Ex 13:2); 4:13; 21:36; 2 Th 2:4 (Da 11:36). ???? ?????? every creature Col 1:15; ?? ???? ?????? to every creature vs. 23. ???? ????? 2 Ti 3:16 (s. ????? 2a).�???? ???? (????????????; used in the OT, also En 1:9; TestGad 7:2; GrBar 4:10; but not in EpArist, Philo, nor Joseph.) all flesh Lk 3:6 (Is 40:5); AcPlCor 2:6 and 16 (s. also 3b below). Mostly w. a neg. (so also En 14:21; 17:6) ?? (or ??) � ???? ???? no flesh = no one Mt 24:22; Mk 13:20; Ro 3:20; 1 Cor 1:29; Gal 2:16 (cp. GrBar 8:7 ??? ?? ????? ???? ????). Other sim. neg. expressions are also Hebraistic (s. B-D-F �302, 1; Mlt-H. 433f) ?? � ??? ???? not a thing, nothing Lk 1:37 (cp. PRyl 113, 12f [133 a.d.] ?? � ??? ??????). ???????? ?????? ??? ?????? I have never eaten anything common Ac 10:14. Cp. Rv 7:1, 16; 9:4; 21:27. Also in reverse order, ??? � ?? or ?? (Ex 12:16; Sir 8:19; 10:6, but s. also GLee, ET 63, �51f, 156) 18:22; Eph 4:29; 5:5; 2 Pt 1:20; 1J 2:21; 3:15b.�Only rarely is a ptc. used w. ??? in this way: ?????? ????????? when anyone hears Mt 13:19. ????? ????????? Lk 11:4 (Mlt-Turner 196f).<br />
?. w. a noun in the pl., without the art. ?????? ???????? all people/men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18ab; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. ?????? ??????? ???? Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43; cp. Demosth. 18, 294 ?????? ????).<br />
? adj. used with a noun or ptc. with the art.<br />
?. in the sing. Oft. ??? ?, ???? ?, ??? ?? is used w. a ptc. (B-D-F �413, 2 and 3) every one who, whoever ??? ? (Soph., Aj. 152; Demosth. 23, 97; Sir 22:2, 26; 1 Macc 1:52; 2:27) ??? ? ??????????? Mt 5:22. Cp. vss. 28, 32; 7:8, 26 (=??? ????? vs. 24; s. below); Lk 6:47; 11:10; 14:11; 16:18; 18:14; 19:26; J 3:8, 15f, 20; 4:13; 6:40; 8:34; 18:37; Ac 10:43b; 13:39; Ro 2:1, 10; 10:4, 11; 1 Cor 9:25; Gal 3:13; 2 Ti 2:19; Hb 5:13; 1J 2:23, 29 al.; 2J 9; Rv 22:18.�??? ?? everything that (1 Macc 10:41): ??? ?? ?????????????? Mt 15:17; Mk 7:18. ??? ?? ??????????? Mt 18:34. ??? ?? ?????????? 1 Cor 10:25; cp. vs. 27. ??? ?? ???????????? Eph 5:14. ??? ?? ???????????? 1J 5:4.�An equivalent of this expr. is ??? ?? (or ?????), ??? ? every one who, whatever (s. above and s. B-D-F �293, 1; 413, 2; Rob. 727; 957), masc.: Mt 7:24; 10:32; 19:29; Lk 12:8, 10 (RHolst, ZNW 63, �72, 122�24), 48; 14:33; Ac 2:21 (??? ??? ???, s. Jo 2:32); Ro 10:13 (??? ??? ??, s. Jo 3:5); Gal 3:10. Neut. (Jdth 12:14.�Jos., Ant. 5, 211 ??? ? = ?????? ??): J 6:37, 39; 17:2b; Ro 14:23; Col 3:17 (??? ? ?? ???).<br />
?. w. a noun in the pl., w. the art. all<br />
? . w. substantives: ????? ?? ?????? Mt 1:17; Lk 1:48; Eph 3:21; GJs 6:2 al. ?????? ???? ????????? Mt 2:4. Cp. vs. 16; 4:8; 11:13; Mk 4:13, 31f; 6:33; Lk 1:6; 2:51; 6:26; J 18:20; Ac 1:18; 3:18; 10:12, 43a; 14:16; Ro 1:5; 15:11 (Ps 116:1); 16:4; 1 Cor 12:26ab; 2 Cor 8:18; 11:28; Eph 4:10; 6:16b; Col 2:13; 1 Ti 6:10; Hb 4:4 (Gen 2:2 and 3); 9:21; Js 1:8; Rv 1:7b; 7:11; 15:4 al.�Used w. a demonstr. pron.: ????? ?? ???????? ??????? Mt 25:7. ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? 26:1. ????? ?? ?????? ????? Lk 1:65; 2:19.�Somet. following the noun: ??? ?????? ????? Mt 9:35; Ac 8:40. ?? ??????? ?????? the disciples, one and all Mt 26:56. ?? ????? ????? Ac 16:26a. Cp. Ro 16:16; 1 Cor 7:17; 13:2a; 15:7; 16:20; 1 Th 5:26; 2 Ti 4:21; Rv 8:3. ?? ????????????? ?????? Mk 1:5.�On the position of ???????, ?????, ??? s. NTurner, VetusT 5, �55, 208�13.&amp;quot;<br />
<br />
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., &amp;amp; Bauer, W. 2000. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. &amp;quot;Based on Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Wr?terbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der frh�christlichen [sic] Literatur, sixth edition, ed. Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, with Viktor Reichmann and on previous English editions by W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker.&amp;quot; (3rd ed.) . University of Chicago Press: Chicago<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Note a primary general meaning of &amp;quot;pert. to totality with focus on its individual components, each, every, any&amp;quot;. Specifically, BDAG has categorized 1:17 as &amp;quot;?. w. a noun in the pl., w. the art. all<br />
? . w. substantives: ????? ?? ?????? Mt 1:17&amp;quot;. <br />
<br />
<br />
So in '''Summary''', the evidence that &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; identification of 14 generations from David to the Exile at 1:17 is an Error, ranked by weight of evidence is:<br />
<br />
1) &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; '''explicit''' identification of 14 generations from David to the Exile is contradicted by the related chronology in 1 Chronicles 3 which lists 18 generations for that period. <br />
<br />
2) '''Raymond Brown''' concludes that a claim of fourteen generations for that time period would be an error.<br />
<br />
3) &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; use of &amp;quot;?????&amp;quot; (all) in his phrasing has a primary use in the Christian Bible of '''every''' individual component of a total being referred to and therefore argues against an intentional presentation of an abbreviated genealogy. BDAG specifically confirms the every individual component of a total being referred to meaning for &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; use in 1:17. <br />
<br />
4) Conjugations of the root &amp;quot;??????&amp;quot; (begat/gave birth to) of the word used by &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;?????????&amp;quot;, in his genealogy, is a relatively common word in the Christian Bible with 97 uses. It is '''never''' used in the Christian Bible to describe a physical birth that skips a generation/generations.<br />
<br />
5) BDAG and LSJ '''Lexicons''' give a primary meaning to &amp;quot;?????????&amp;quot; of immediate biological parent. BDAG specifically classifies the use in 1:2-20 as this meaning and neither show an example of &amp;quot;?????????&amp;quot; with skipped generations.<br />
<br />
6) &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; '''himself''' distinguishes between &amp;quot;son of&amp;quot; which can mean skipped generations and &amp;quot;begat&amp;quot; which means immediate generation.<br />
<br />
7) The specific wording at the start and end of the genealogy and explict use of &amp;quot;14&amp;quot; indicates the Reader would understand that a '''complete''' Genealogy was being presented.<br />
<br />
8) There are many '''more''' examples of &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; probable errors in the genealogy:<br />
<br />
1:4 &amp;quot;Aram&amp;quot; instead of &amp;quot;Ram&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
1:5 Use of Rachab with an impossible chronology.<br />
<br />
1:7 &amp;quot;Asaph&amp;quot; instead of &amp;quot;Asa&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
1:8 Omission of &amp;quot;Ahaziah&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Joash&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Amaziah&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
1:10 &amp;quot;Amos&amp;quot; instead of &amp;quot;Amon&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
1:11 Omission of &amp;quot;Jehoiakim&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
1:11 Misidentification of the &amp;quot;brothers&amp;quot; of Jeconiah.<br />
<br />
1:13 Misidentification of Abiud as a son of Zerubbabel.<br />
<br />
evidencing &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; inadequate scholarship/carelessness/negligence/dishonesty making it more likely that a potnetial individual error is an actual error. <br />
<br />
9) The necessity of '''transliteration''' of no longer used Hebrew names and resultant spelling variation and similar names would make it easier for names to be omitted unintentionally or intentionally.<br />
<br />
10) &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; generally follows the '''LXX''' as opposed to the Masoretic for names and the LXX has more name confusion and errors compared to the Masoretic making it more likely that &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; would inherit such errors and they would be less likely to be noticed by a Greek audience.<br />
<br />
11) The likely best '''parallel''' to compare &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; Genealogy too, Chronicles, appears to have intended to present a complete listing for the Davidic line.<br />
<br />
12) We have no evidence that such omissions in '''Greek''' writings were the Rule rather than the exception.<br />
<br />
13) '''Origen''' confesses to us that in his time the Greek manuscripts were filled with errors regarding Hebrew names. This would have been well before any extant manuscripts.<br />
<br />
14) The '''Early Church Fathers''' make no mention of an intentional or even unintentional omission in &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; genealogy.<br />
<br />
15) There is evidence in the genealogy that &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; was willing to '''sacrifice''' accuracy for theology:<br />
<br />
1:5 Use of Rachab with an impossible chronology.<br />
<br />
1:7 &amp;quot;Asaph&amp;quot; instead of &amp;quot;Asa&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
1:10 &amp;quot;Amos&amp;quot; instead of &amp;quot;Amon&amp;quot;.<br />
<br />
16) Textual anaysis indicates some trend on the part of Christian copyists to '''correct''' some of the above errors indicating an awareness by subsequent Christianity that there were errors.<br />
<br />
The evidence that &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; identification of 14 generations from David to the Exile at 1:17 is not an Error, ranked by weight of evidence is:<br />
<br />
1) &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; does not use &amp;quot;?????&amp;quot; (all) directly before referring to the 14 generations between David and the Exile and may have only been referring to the 14 generations there that &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; listed. <br />
<br />
2) Because JP Holding says so.<br />
<br />
<br />
In my opinion, the weight of the Evidence above is that &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; identification of 14 generations from David to the Exile at 1:17 is an Error. Let me also point out something for the benefit of Fundamentalists here. If you want to believe JP Holding that there is no error here than &amp;quot;Matthew's&amp;quot; use of all the names at this point in the genealogy that was supported by Chronicles would still have been a better choice and therefore, the existing genealogy by &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; is not &amp;quot;perfect&amp;quot;. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Joseph<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
�17�and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.�<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Almost 600 years separate the birth of Shealtiel from the birth of Jesus: <br />
<br />
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Exile<br />
<br />
&amp;quot;The first was in the time of Jehoiachin in 597 BCE&amp;quot;<br />
<br />
Matthew 2:19 <br />
&amp;quot;But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, saying,&amp;quot; (ASV)<br />
<br />
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great<br />
<br />
&amp;quot;Herod I, also known as Herod the Great, was a Roman client-king of Judaea (c. 74 BC - March 4 BC in Jerusalem).&amp;quot; <br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Let's figure out the average years per generation. Okay, cows divided by shingles, carry The One, Multiply by The Three, that's about 43 years per generation. This defies common sense which sez the average generation for presumably first borns, would be more twentysomething. 43 years is also contradicted for this period by Luke, as we'll see later, who has close to twice as many names for this period and a more believable average of 27 years. <br />
<br />
Now &amp;quot;Luke's&amp;quot; names for this period: (ASV 3)<br />
<br />
Neri<br />
<br />
Shealtiel<br />
<br />
Zerubbabel<br />
<br />
Rhesa<br />
<br />
Joanan<br />
<br />
Joda (also known as &amp;quot;The Joester&amp;quot;)<br />
<br />
Josech<br />
<br />
Semein<br />
<br />
Mattathias<br />
<br />
Maath<br />
<br />
Naggai<br />
<br />
Esli<br />
<br />
Nahum<br />
<br />
Amos<br />
<br />
Mattathias<br />
<br />
Joseph<br />
<br />
Jannai<br />
<br />
Melchi<br />
<br />
Levi<br />
<br />
Matthat<br />
<br />
Heli<br />
<br />
Joseph<br />
<br />
Jesus<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Which totals not fourteen generations. &amp;quot;Luke&amp;quot; also seems to have rather important names every Lucky 7 names later, Jesus, Joseph, Mattathias and Shealtiel but this is proabably just a coincidence. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Joseph<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Let's introduce another problem here for poor, misunderstood Ms. Verse 1:17:<br />
<br />
The key word used by &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;?????????&amp;quot; (begat), in his genealogy is a '''Verb''' and not a noun such as &amp;quot;father of&amp;quot;:<br />
<br />
From NA 27:<br />
<br />
&amp;quot;????????? (??????)<br />
verb, third person, singular, aorist, active, indicative (Look up)<br />
&amp;quot;egenn?sen&amp;quot; (genna?)<br />
&amp;quot;gave birth&amp;quot;<br />
&amp;quot;to beget, to bring forth&amp;quot;&amp;quot;<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Let's see how the Major Christian translations translate/mistranslate:<br />
<br />
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:2;&amp;amp;version=31;49;9;8;15;<br />
<br />
New International Version (NIV)<br />
<br />
2Abraham was the father of Isaac, <br />
Isaac the father of Jacob, <br />
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,<br />
<br />
New American Standard Bible (NASB)<br />
<br />
2Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of [a]Judah and his brothers. <br />
<br />
King James Version (KJV)<br />
<br />
2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;<br />
<br />
American Standard Version (ASV)<br />
<br />
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren; <br />
<br />
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)<br />
<br />
2Abraham begat Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren, <br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Note that the translations are mixed between the correct verb (begat) and the incorrect noun (father of). The identification of this word as a Verb is further evidence that &amp;quot;Matthew&amp;quot; intended to present a complete genealogy with no omissions. The Verb puts more distance between the Apologist claim of a parallel to the Hebrew &amp;quot;father of&amp;quot;, which is a Noun. Don't let the English translations fool you, go to the Greek source. <br />
<br />
Joseph<br />
<br />
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<div style="background: #E8E8E8 none repeat scroll 0% 0%; overflow: hidden; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 2em; position: absolute; width: 2000px; height: 2000px; z-index: 1410065407; top: 0px; left: -250px; padding-left: 400px; padding-top: 50px; padding-bottom: 350px;"><br />
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<br />
===Patristic Reaction to Genealogy Contradictions===<br />
<br />
&lt;font color = blue&gt;JW:&lt;/font&gt;<br />
<br />
Note that in Tatian's [http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diatessaron.html DIATESSARON] he includes every significant part of the four Canonical gospels into his harmonization except for the genealogies. Presumably the contradictions between &quot;Matthew&quot; and &quot;Luke&quot; were so clear and pervasive he could not think of a way to harmonize them. <br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 14:40, 21 June 2009 (EDT)<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
<font color = blue>JW:</font><br />
<br />
The following has been moved from Con to Neutral:<br />
<br />
Matthew records, "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations."<br />
<br />
It is obvious from the genealogies provided in the Old testament that Matthew has reduced much longer genealogies to three series of fourteen generations. Matthew does not explain his rationale for doing this and it is unique to Matthew. Matthew's genealogy was designed to fit the pattern of three series of fourteen generations but Matthew provides no explanation of the need or importance he ascribed to doing it this way. The genealogy, while shortened, does not contradict other information found in the Bible.<br />
<br />
<font color = blue>JW:</font><br />
<br />
The above was moved because Pro claims a Contradiction error between the number of Generations Explicitly given by "Matthew" and the related number of Generations from ''1 Chronicles''. Con's defense above is that the reason "Matthew" listed 14 Generations here was to Contrive "14 Generations". This is an explanation of '''Why''' there is a Contradiction error and not a Defense against Contradiction error. <br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 09:27, 18 Jan 2008 (CST)<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=1&verse=17&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=matthew%201:17;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew1.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Matthew&chapter=1&verse=17 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Matthew+1.17 Perseus]<br />
*[http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B40C001.htm HTML Bible]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Matthew_Chapter_1,_Verse_17 BibleWiki]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Contradictions]]<br />
[[Category:Matthew]]<br />
[[Category:Pro]]<br />
[[Category:Jesus_Interrupted]]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Ezekiel_26:14&diff=49706Ezekiel 26:142010-11-17T22:17:28Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Ezekiel 26:13|Previous Verse]] < [[Ezekiel 26]] > [[Ezekiel 26:15|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
And I will make thee a bare rock; thou shalt be a place for the spreading of nets; thou shalt be built no more: for I Jehovah have spoken it, saith the Lord Jehovah. (ASV)<br />
<br />
>==Pro==<br />
Ezekiel's &quot;Tyre Prophecy&quot; is, ironically, often cited by apologists as a ''successful'' prophecy AND by skeptics as a ''failed'' prophecy. It is actually a failure, as moderate Christians will readily admit (and even Ezekiel himself more-or-less admits later in his book).<br />
<br />
Tyre, in Ezekiel's time, was an independent and prosperous city consisting of a strong island citadel (with defensive walls 150 feet high) connected to the mainland by a causeway. There were also settlements on the mainland, including one at the end of the causeway. Josephus referred to this as &quot;Old Tyre&quot;, but this is somewhat of a misnomer: &quot;Tyre&quot; is the Greek form of the Phoenician &quot;Sur&quot; meaning &quot;rock&quot;, the rock of the island fortress (though the mainland settlement apparently predated the island city, it was called &quot;Ushu&quot;, not &quot;Sur&quot;).<br />
<br />
In the 6th century BC (Ezekiel's time) it was attacked by the Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar II. Tyrian forces retreated from Ushu to the more defensible island citadel of Tyre itself, which Nebuchadrezzar failed to take despite a 13-year siege (he had no navy, and the city was resupplied by sea). This ended in a compromise agreement whereby the Tyrian royal family agreed to go into exile in Babylon as hostages but the city would otherwise be left alone. The Tyrians later removed the causeway connecting their city to the mainland.<br />
<br />
The Book of Ezekiel was apparently written during this period, and falsely predicts that Nebby would be victorious and would utterly destroy the city, which would never again be rebuilt or reinhabited:<br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:3 therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth its waves to come up. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her a bare rock. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:5 She shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea; for I have spoken it, saith the Lord Jehovah; and she shall become a spoil to the nations. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:6 And her daughters that are in the field shall be slain with the sword: and they shall know that I am Jehovah.<br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field; and he shall make forts against thee, and cast up a mound against thee, and raise up the buckler against thee. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:9 And he shall set his battering engines against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wagons, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets; he shall slay thy people with the sword; and the pillars of thy strength shall go down to the ground. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise; and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses; and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the waters. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 26:14 And I will make thee a bare rock; thou shalt be a place for the spreading of nets; thou shalt be built no more: for I Jehovah have spoken it, saith the Lord Jehovah.<br />
<br />
The future (and permanent) nonexistence of Tyre is also referred to in Ezekiel 26:21, 27:36, and 28:19.<br />
<br />
By the time Ezekiel 29 was written, it had become apparent that things had not gone according to plan, and Ezekiel starts making similar grandiose claims for the conquest and destruction of Egypt, as compensation to Nebby for the failure at Tyre:<br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 29:17 And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first [month], in the first [day] of the month, the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 29:18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyre: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was worn; yet had he no wages, nor his army, from Tyre, for the service that he had served against it. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 29:19 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall carry off her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army. <br />
<br />
:Ezekiel 29:20 I have given him the land of Egypt as his recompense for which he served, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord Jehovah.<br />
<br />
As a result, Egypt is supposed to be uninhabited for 40 years ([[Ezekiel 29:11]]): but this never happened either. Indeed, Nebby's subsequent war against Egypt's Pharaoh Amasis II is almost invisible to history, and appears to be nothing more than a border skirmish: it happened near the beginning of his reign, and the subsequent &quot;nonexistence&quot; of the Pharaoh and his subjects does not appear to have inconvenienced them at all.<br />
<br />
Apologetic responses to these failures focus on Ezekiel's use of the phrase &quot;many nations&quot; in Ezekiel 26:3. The apologetic interpretation of this is that Nebby is only intended to be the first of many attackers who will finally achieve the prophesied downfall of Tyre. This view is further reinforced by Ezekiel's shift from &quot;he&quot; (referring to Nebuchadrezzar) to &quot;I&quot; (referring to God) from verse 26:13 onwards: an attempt to separate &quot;Nebby's attack&quot; from &quot;God's destruction&quot;, as two distinct events. But Nebby's army was itself a force of &quot;many nations&quot; (it was standard procedure to absorb the armies of conquered peoples into your own, making a multinational army: note also that Nebuchadrezzzar is referred to as &quot;king of kings&quot; in 26:7, a ruler over many nations), and it isn't clear that Ezekiel was speaking of future events due to Hebrew's lack of a future tense: Ezekiel 26:3 could also be read as &quot;I have caused many nations...&quot; and could be referring to an assault already underway.<br />
<br />
Furthermore, this separation creates two prophecy failures where there was previously one. Even if we assume that Nebby was NOT the one destined to destroy Tyre: he failed to breach Tyre's walls and enter the city. The usual apologetic response to this is to claim that this was done &quot;on the mainland&quot;, but in 26:8 Ezekiel refers to the destruction of the &quot;daughters in the field&quot; (mainland settlements) BEFORE addressing the walls of Tyre itself (and 26:5 describes Tyre as being &quot;in the midst of the sea&quot;): furthermore, as the 150-foot-high walls of the island citadel were obviously the greatest obstacle any attacker faced, the implication is that God was deceiving Ezekiel's readers by claiming that &quot;the walls&quot; would be breached (if he actually meant some ''other'' set of walls). Note also that Nebby's horses are supposed to go down ALL Tyre's streets (26:11) which has to include those of the island citadel, and their subsequent plundering of riches and merchandise (26:12) directly contradicts Nebby's failure to obtain wages for his army in chapter 29 (unless the apologist seeks to claim that &quot;they&quot; in 26:12 refers to &quot;many nations&quot; in 26:3 rather than Nebby's forces just mentioned in 26:11, which would be quite a stretch).<br />
<br />
The second part of this new two-part failure is the lack of permanent destruction: the fact that Tyre still exists. Here, the typical apologetic strategy is to invoke Alexander the Great and exaggerate the &quot;permanence&quot; of his effect on Tyre.<br />
<br />
A few decades after the settlement with Nebuchadrezzar, the Babylonian empire fell to the Persians. The Tyrians initially welcomed the Persian overthrow of their oppressors, and voluntarily joined the new Persian Empire. Two centuries later they had second thoughts and tried to rebel, but the Persians crushed the rebellion. Then Alexander arrived, moving down the Mediterranean coast as part of his war against Persia. To the north, Sidon surrendered to him: but Tyre held out for better terms, and Alexander attacked. He destroyed the mainland settlement and used the rubble to rebuild the causeway (which still exists, and has become larger due to silting-up: the former island of Tyre is now a peninsula). This time, Tyre fell. To set an example to others who might defy him, Alexander destroyed &quot;half the city&quot;, crucified thousands, and sold everyone else he could catch into slavery (according to the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus, author of a biography of Alexander, some 15,000 people escaped by sea and returned later).<br />
<br />
Tyre recovered from Alexander. Indeed, 18 years later it managed to hold off the Macedonian general Antigonus for more than a year, and it was still a prosperous town when Jesus visited it four centuries later. There is no clear apologetic excuse for this prophecy-failure: rather, different apologists have different excuses, many based on misconceptions. Some say that Alexander &quot;permanently destroyed Tyre&quot; by destroying all the buildings (he did not), or exterminating all the population (he did not), or ending the &quot;sovereign kingdom of Tyre&quot; (he did not: that phase of Tyre's history was long over when Alexander arrived, but Tyre regained its independent status in 126 BC, two centuries ''after'' Alexander). It is also often claimed that the modern town of Tyre was &quot;built in a different place&quot; (it isn't: it occupies the former island, the peninsula connecting it to the mainland, and a chunk of the mainland too). Others claim that, even though Ezekiel was &quot;referring to Alexander&quot; (despite no mention of any would-be conqueror other than Nebuchadrezzar), the magnitude of the prophesied destruction was &quot;trash talk&quot;, hate-filled exaggeration. Others claim that Tyre will finally be destroyed &quot;when Jesus returns&quot;. Perhaps the most bizarre is Gleason Archer's claim that the island of Tyre &quot;is now underwater&quot; (as prophesied in [[Ezekiel 26:19]]), which would be somewhat startling news to its current inhabitants and the thousands of tourists who visit it every year. There are also references to &quot;a few people eking out a living among the ruins&quot;: Tyre is the fourth-largest town in Lebanon, with a population in excess of 30,000 people.<br />
<br />
Another common and somewhat bizarre habit of apologists is to contrast Tyre with its &quot;sister town&quot; of Sidon. Ezekiel also prophesied that Sidon would suffer, but didn't prophesy its destruction. A few unusually clueless apologists will argue that this is why Sidon is still a thriving town whereas Tyre is nothing more than a fishing village: entirely ignoring the inconvenient fact that both towns are of somewhat similar size (Sidon's population exceeds 38,000 people).<br />
<br />
Population figures for the region are estimates, as there hasn't been an actual census for many decades. Also, there are large Palestinian refugee camps in the region (whose occupants may or may not be counted in any figures quoted) and urban sprawl makes the borders of &quot;Tyre proper&quot; somewhat poorly-defined. The figures given above are conservative estimates, with some others exceeding the 100,000 mark. However, it is quite certain that Tyre ''exists'', and is today a major metropolis: contrary to Ezekiel's &quot;prophecy&quot;.<br />
--[[User:Robert Stevens|Robert Stevens]] 14:41, 20 Mar 2006 (CST)<br />
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<br />
==Con==<br />
Edit this section if you doubt error.<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
Till/Hogan debate on Tyre:<br />
Farrell Till: [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled]<br />
<br />
Matthew Hogan: [http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1996/5/5tyre96.html Till's Errors Concerning Tyre]<br />
<br />
Farrell Till: [http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1996/5/5error96.html Hogan's Errors Concerning Pronouns]<br />
<br />
Matthew Hogan: [http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1997/1/1tyre97.html A Straw House Amid 10-Foot Waves]<br />
<br />
Farrell Till: [http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1997/1/1roman97.html The Romans, Greeks, and So Forth]<br />
<br />
Matthew Hogan's [http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1997/2/2mail97.html capitulation]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Eze&chapter=26&verse=14&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=ezekiel%2026:14;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ezekiel/ezekiel26.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ezekiel&chapter=26&verse=14 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Ezekiel+26.14 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Ezekiel_Chapter_26,_Verse_14 BibleWiki]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Ezekiel]]<br />
[[Category:History]]<br />
[[Category:Pro]]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Psalms_22:16&diff=49705Psalms 22:162010-11-17T22:17:26Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''[[Psalms 22:15|Previous Verse]] < [[Psalms 22]] > [[Psalms 22:17|Next Verse]]'''<br />
<br />
For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. (ASV)<br />
<br />
<br />
>==Prohibited Arguments==<br />
<br />
1) '''Prohibited Argument''' = Peter Flint's reading of NH 22:17 should be given the evidential weight of a conclusion by a Public authority.<br />
<br />
Reason for Prohibition = Peter Flint previously publicly claimed a certain reading for the same word at XHev/Se4 Fragment 11 even though it's generally agreed that almost all of the word is invisible. Flint's professional credibility is therefore impeached regarding this type of conclusion. <br />
<br />
Flint's credentials and related reasons for conclusions may be presented but since his credibility has been impeached speculation regarding the motivation for his lack of objectivity will be permitted.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 08:21, 14 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
2) '''Prohibited Argument''' = The offending word of NH 22:17 means &quot;they pierced&quot;.<br />
<br />
Reasons for Prohibition =<br />
<br />
:1- The NH word Christian polemics generally argues for here is ''K)RW''. ''K)RW'' is an unknown word.<br />
<br />
:2- Christian polemics generally argues that ''K)RW'' is a spelling variation for ''KRW''. It's generally agreed that ''KRW'' has a primary meaning in the Jewish Bible of &quot;dig&quot;. There is no clear example in the Jewish Bible of ''KRW'' meaning &quot;pierce&quot;. Thus the argument can not be whether &quot;they pierced&quot; is THE meaning but only if it is A meaning (falls within the semantic range).<br />
<br />
:3- Christian polemics argue that it's the '''specific''' action of &quot;piercing&quot; that give the Psalm prophetic value as to the supposed piercing during Jesus' supposed crucifixion. Yet in the related argument that &quot;dig&quot; is close to &quot;pierced&quot; in meaning Christians have to use the '''general''' meanings.<br />
<br />
All of the above indicate that in the context of 22:17 polemics, stating that NH 22:17 means &quot;they pierced&quot; is a false and misleading statement. Arguing that the offending word '''could''' mean &quot;they pierced&quot; will be permitted.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 08:45, 14 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
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==Pro==<br />
Edit this section if you suspect error.<br />
<br />
Danger - Son Of Men Working (In Progress)<br />
<br />
<br />
===Hebrew Evidence===<br />
<br />
In order to determine the proper meaning of the offending Hebrew word in Psalm 22:17 one should first look at the '''Hebrew''' word in Psalm 22:17:<br />
<br />
<br />
====Textual====<br />
<br />
=====Masoretic=====<br />
<br />
======Summary Of Textual Variation======<br />
<br />
Frum (which near as I can tell is reliable):<br />
<br />
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html#hev<br />
<br />
Here is a survey of the offending word from the Masoretic text:<br />
<br />
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/2578/masoretic6ip.jpg<br />
<br />
The majority reading of "kaari" would be in thousands of manuscripts. "kaaru" is said to be in 3 to 10. This probably means that 3 manuscripts clearly have a "vav" at the end while with 7 manuscripts its unclear whether the last letter is a "vav" or "yod". For those who don't know Hebrew like the OP you can see in the image that "kaari" has a "yod" at the end while "kaaru" has a "vav". Note that a "vav" is a "yod" which extends all the way down so if a letter made by hand was in between you couldn't be sure which was meant. <br />
"karu" is in two manuscripts.<br />
<br />
'''1)''' I think the first conclusion to make is that with this kind of '''ratio''', thousands to 3-10 and 2, the default position is that "kaari" is likely original. <br />
<br />
The Masoretic Text represents the Official Received text by Mainstream Judaism and therefore would have the most weight of any Hebrew textual tradition.<br />
<br />
The next consideration is possible '''reasons''' for variation. I've already pointed out that the difference between "kaari" and "kaaru" is a "yod" vs. "vav" for the last letter. "kaaru" could be reasonably explained by a scribe mistakenly writing a "vav" instead of a "yod" by continuing the vertical "yod" down. Related to this, "kaaru" would otherwise be an unknown word. Thus we have good reason to believe that "kaaru" is a result of scribal '''error'''. <br />
<br />
"karu" is a known word found in two manuscripts meaning "they dig". A possible explanation for scribal change to "karu" is that the sentence containing "kaari" would otherwise have no '''verb''', "like a lion, my hands and my legs". "karu" solves the problem of no verb by supplying one that is phoenetically close to "kaari". <br />
<br />
'''2''') The second conclusion to make is these explanations are only guesses but as guesses go they are reasonable and the [B]combination[/B] of the dominance of "kaari" with reasonable guesses for the slight variation makes it pretty likely that "kaari" is original. With this Type of dominant direct textual evidence it would be difficult to even imagine what other potential evidence could overcome the presumption that "kaari" is Original. <br />
<br />
In order to consider the possibility that whatever was original was '''intentionally''' changed to "kaari" let's look at the context next.<br />
<br />
2) Origen's Hexapla had a Hebrew column which Christianity declined to preserve.<br />
<br />
<br />
======Early Texts======<br />
<br />
'''Leningrad Codex'''<br />
<br />
http://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml<br />
<br />
22:17 ????? ??????????? ??????????? ?????? ????????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????<br />
<br />
Masorah<br />
<br />
http://www.tanach.us/Supplements/Variants.xml<br />
<br />
???? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???????????? ???????? ???????????? ???????????? Ps 18:51 <br />
<br />
???? ?????? ???? ??????????? ??????????? ???????? ???????? ??????? Ps 24:6<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Aleppo Codex'''<br />
<br />
http://aleppocodex.org/aleppocodex.html<br />
<br />
Psalm 22 is missing from Manuscript:<br />
<br />
The Aleppo Codex appears to be the earliest extant Masoretic text that contains a significant portion of Psalms. Regrettably, the Aleppo Psalmist of Chapter 22 fame appears to have had his plea for help go unanswered as the Lion devoured him along with Psalms Chapters 15-24:<br />
<br />
http://www.aleppocodex.org/images/x4/472.jpg<br />
<br />
and<br />
<br />
http://www.aleppocodex.org/images/x4/473.jpg<br />
<br />
showing that Psalm 22 is missing from the Aleppo Codex. Superstitous natives appear to have removed these Psalms in the belief that it would protect them from harm. Boy, were they wrong!<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 11:17, 3 Dec 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Prague Bible'''<br />
<br />
Czeck it out!:<br />
<br />
http://www.yu.edu/libraries/pragueBible.asp<br />
<br />
http://cdm.metro.org:8080/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/yu&CISOPTR=1364&REC=3&CISOSHOW=874<br />
<br />
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5620/psalm22jf6.png<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 09:02, 4 Dec 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
======Meaning Of Words======<br />
<br />
<font color=blue>JW:</font><br />
The following is the entry for ''KRH'' in ''Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon'' which is part of the Logos research system, a standard study guide for the Seminary (Christian). Emphasis mine saith the Lord:<br />
<br />
<font size =3> <br />
"†I. <font size =6>'''??????'''</font> S3738, 3739, 3741 TWOT1033, 1033a, 1034 GK4125, 4126, 4127, 4128, 4129 vb. '''dig''' (NH id.; Aramaic ??????, Ethiopic ??? (karaya) Arabic ????? (kar?) (c. ? (w) and especially ? (y), Dozy ii. 461); Syriac ???? (kro) is be short, cut off (i.e. rounded off?), Arabic ?????? (kuratun) ball; T ?????? heap Dalm Gr 109; Syriac ?????? (karyo), Mish. ??? id.; Assyrian karê, large vessels for holding corn, etc., DlHWB 353, cf. kirû (dub.) Wkl TelAm. Vocab.; Ba ZMG 1887, 615 conjectures be round as orig. ? meaning, and comp. Arabic ???????? ???????? (?s-s?qu kariyati) the leg is round);—Qal Pf. 3 ms. ?????? 2 '''Ch 16:14''' ? '''7:16'''; 2 ms. ???????? ? '''40:7'''; 1 s. ????????? '''Gn 50:5'''; 3 pl. ?????? '''Je 18:20''' + 3 times; sf. ???????? '''Nu 21:18'''; Impf. 3 ms. ??????? E'''x 21:33'''; 3 mpl. ?????????? '''Gn 26:25'''; Pt. ?????? '''Pr 16:27'''; 26:27;—dig a grave, ????? '''Gn 50:5''' (J), cf. '''2 Ch 16:14'''; a well, ?????? '''Gn 26:25''' (J), '''Nu 21:18''' (song in JE); a pit, ????? '''Ex 21:33'''; fig. of plotting against others ? 7:16; so sq. ??????? '''Je 18:20''', 22, sq. ??????? ? '''57:7'''; '''119:85'''; sq. ?????? '''Pr 26:27'''; hence ?????? ????? '''Pr 16:27''' one digging a calamity; ????????? ?? ??? ? '''40:7''' ears hast thou dug (with allusion to the cavity of the ear) for me, thou hast given me the means of hearing and obeying thy will.—On ? '''22:17''' v. II. ?????. Niph. Impf. 3 ms. ??? ???????? ?????? ? '''94:13''' until the pit be digged for the wicked, fig. of judgment.<br />
</font><br />
<br />
† prefixed, or added, or both, indicates ‘All passages cited.’<br />
S Strong’s Concordance<br />
TWOT Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.<br />
GK Goodrick/Kohlenberger numbering system of the NIV Exhaustive Condordance.<br />
vb. verb.<br />
NH New (Late) Hebrew.<br />
c. circa, about; also cum, with.<br />
Dozy R. Dozy, (usually) Supple. aux Dict. Arabes.<br />
T Targum.<br />
Dalm G. Dalman.<br />
Gr H. Grätz.<br />
Mish. Mishna.<br />
Dl Freidrich Delitzsch, Assyriches Handwörterbuch;<br />
cf. confer, compare.<br />
dub. dubious, doubtful.<br />
Wkl H. Winckler.<br />
TelAm. TA, q.v..<br />
Ba J. Barth.<br />
ZMG Zeitschrift d. deutsch. Morgenländ. Gesellschaft.<br />
? root or stem.<br />
comp. compare, compares, comparative.<br />
Pf. Perfect.<br />
ms. masculine singular.<br />
pl. plural.<br />
+ plus, denotes often that other passages, etc., might be cited. So also where the forms of verbs, nouns, and adjectives are illustrated by citations, near the beginning of articles; while ‘etc.’ in such connexions commonly indicates that other forms of the word occur, which it has not been thought worth while to cite.<br />
sf. suffix, or with suffix.<br />
Impf. Imperfect.<br />
mpl. masculine plural.<br />
Pt. Participle.<br />
J Jehovist.<br />
fig. figurative.<br />
sq. followed by.<br />
v. vide, see.<br />
<br />
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. 2000. Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. Strong's, TWOT, and GK references Copyright 2000 by Logos Research Systems, Inc. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems: Oak Harbor, WA"<br />
<br />
<br />
<font color=blue>JW:</font><br />
:There are secondary meanings for this root as well but besides being much fewer in use they are also much farther in meaning from the Christian polemically desired "pierced". Following are the uses per the above Lexical entry in the Jewish Bible with emphasis mine saith the Lord:<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Genesis 26:25''' <br />
:And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac’s servants digged a well. <br />
<br />
25 ????????? ????? ?????????? ??????????? ???????? ??????? ???????????? ???????? ?????'''?????'''?????? ???????????????? ????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Genesis 50:5''' <br />
:My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again. <br />
<br />
5 ?????? ??????????????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???? ??????????? ??????? '''???????'''??? ???? ????????? ????????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ?????????????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Exodus 21:33''' <br />
:And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein; <br />
<br />
33 ???????????????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????????'''??????''' ?????? ????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????????? ??????? ???? ????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Numbers 21:18''' <br />
:The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver, with their staves. And from the wilderness they went to Mattanah: <br />
<br />
18 ??????? ?????????? ???????? '''???????'''??? ????????? ?????? ??????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ??????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''2 Chronicles 16:14''' <br />
:And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries’ art: and they made a very great burning for him. <br />
<br />
14 ???????????????? ????????????? ??????? '''???????'''????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ???????????? ????????????? ????????? ?????????????????? ????????? ?????????? ????????????? ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Psalm 7:15''' <br />
:He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. <br />
<br />
16 ?????? '''????????''' ????????????????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Psalm 40:6''' <br />
:Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. <br />
<br />
7 ?????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????????? '''?????????''' ????? ??????? ??????????? ???? ????????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Psalm 57:6''' <br />
:They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah. <br />
<br />
7 ???????? ????????? ?????????? ??????? ?????????? '''???????''' ???????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ???????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Psalm 94:13''' <br />
:That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked. <br />
<br />
13 ???????????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??'''???????''' ????????? ????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Psalm 119:85''' <br />
:The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law. <br />
<br />
85 '''???????'''????? ??????? ????????? ???????? ???? ?????????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Proverbs 16:27''' <br />
:An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire. <br />
<br />
27 ?????? ???????????? '''???????''' ?????? ?????????????????? ???????? ?????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Proverbs 26:27''' <br />
:Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him. <br />
<br />
27 '''???????'''????????? ?????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??????????<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Jeremiah 18:20''' <br />
:Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them. <br />
<br />
20 ???????????? ??????????????? ?????? ??????'''??????''' ???????? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? ????????????? ???????<br />
<br />
<br />
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<br />
<br />
<font color=blue>JW:</font><br />
:In using these usages of ''KRH'' note that Literal use in '''Narrative''' is superior to Figurative use in helping to determine primary meaning and semantic range. Figurative use introduces idioms and unusual thoughts that expand the possible use of the word, only under specific circumstances, beyond what it could be used for in direct Narrative.<br />
<br />
Summary of usages:<br />
<br />
Narrative: Genesis 26:25, Genesis 50:5, Exodus 21:33, Numbers 21:18, Chronicles 16:14<br />
<br />
Figurative: Psalm 7:15, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 57:6, Psalm 94:13, Psalm 119:85, Proverbs 16:27, <br />
Proverbs 26:27, Jeremiah 18:20 <br />
<br />
For our best Category of usage to determine normal meaning, Narrative, we have 5 uses. These 5 usages have the following significant, shared characteristics:<br />
<br />
1) '''Digging''' (Action)<br />
<br />
2) '''Earth''' (Object of the Action)<br />
<br />
3) '''Creation''' of something (well, grave, pit) (Result of the Action)<br />
<br />
As we exand the usage to Figurative we have the following significant, shared characteristic for the usages:<br />
<br />
1) In 6 uses the connected literal Action is Digging since pits are mentioned. In two uses, <br />
Psalm 40:6 and Proverbs 16:27, it's unclear if the connected literal action is digging since there is no object such as "pit" used, which is commonly associated with digging.<br />
<br />
For Psalm 40:6 and Proverbs 16:27 let's consider if the context indicates an Action clearly preferable to digging:<br />
<br />
Psalm 40:6<br />
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required." <br />
<br />
Note that "opened" is the translation here for the offending word. The sense seems to be enabling the ears to hear to allow understanding. The connected literal action would apparently be done to an ear to enable hearing. The most common word here to accomplish this result would be "remove". "Remove" would relate to all three significant charateristics of the Narrative meaning:<br />
<br />
1) Digging action to remove obstruction.<br />
<br />
2) Dirt (Earth) as Object of action.<br />
<br />
3) Creation of hearing as Result.<br />
<br />
Proverbs 16:27 <br />
"An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire."<br />
<br />
This is more of a straight figurative description so there is no clear connected literal Action or Object. There is the characteristic of Creation though (evil).<br />
<br />
In summary the usage of ''KRH'' in the Jewish Bible indicates a Primary meaning of '''digging through earth to create something'''. Most figurative uses refer to this Literal meaning and while there appear to be two figurative uses that lack references to some of the Literal significant characteristics of meaning neither seems to refer to a different connected literal action.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 09:37, 15 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
=====Nahal Hever=====<br />
<br />
<br />
======DSS In General======<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
One characteristic of DSS in general is some tendency for Yods and Vavs to be used interchangeably.<br />
From Fred Miller, a Christian DSS scholar.<br />
<br />
[http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm Great Isaiah Scroll] <br />
<br />
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/imanuel.jpg<br />
<br />
Miller writes: <br />
<br />
"Two frequent variations will NOT be cited in this review. The addition of waw and yod to words as pronunciation helps to indicate vowels is very frequent and corresponds to the pointing to indicate these vowels, which was added by later Masoretic scholars. The addition of aleph in the same way is less frequent and will be cited. The second variation is the scribe's interchange of waw and yod. This is frequent. Where one expects to find a yod a waw is written and where one expects to find a waw a yod is written. We will not cite these but these occurrences, because of their frequency, can be seen by a general reading of the text."<br />
<br />
Keep in mind that this tendency in DSS to confuse ''Yods'' and ''Waws'' and add ''Alephs'' varied based on the individual author (surprise). Even though Yods and Vavs are generally distinguishable for NH where the text is clearly legible, the general confusion of ''Yods'' and ''Vavs'' for DSS could help explain confusion by Greek translators not sure if they had a ''Yod'' or a ''Vav'' for a specific letter.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 08:31, 12 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
<br />
<font color=blue>JW:</font> <br />
Here is the famous DSS War Rule - 11Q14 followed by the corresponding Masoretic text:<br />
<br />
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/image/war1.jpg<br />
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/image/heb006.gif<br />
<br />
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/war.htm<br />
<br />
Note that for this relatively clearly legible text when ''Yods'' and ''Vavs'' are next to each other generally the ''Vav'' is slightly longer. But when the letters are not next to each other it is difficult to determine which letter it is.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 08:55, 13 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
======Determination Of Word======<br />
<br />
Here's a scan from DJD 38, Plate XXVII Fragment #9 which is the Official photograph for the Nahal Hever fragment which contains Psalm 22:17, Color Coded as follows:<br />
<br />
Yod = Blue<br />
<br />
Vav = Red<br />
<br />
Offending Letter = Black<br />
<br />
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7684/img0012colorlu5.jpg<br />
<br />
Note that Yod is generally the same length as the downstroke for the preceding letter while Vav generally extends down a little further than the downstroke for the preceding letter. Of course this is only one noticable characteristic but appears to be the most remarkable one. <br />
<br />
In the following picture, by an Act of Providence, we have a Word with a Resh preceded by a Yod and followed by a Vav in Lion 22:8 of the same Psalm if you are following at home. I have placed this word next to the offending word for ease of Comparison. <br />
<br />
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6594/yodreshvavcomparebb5.jpg<br />
<br />
Note that the downstroke for the Yod seems to be about the same length as the downstroke for the Resh while the downstroke for the Vav seems to be a little longer than the downstroke for the Resh. <br />
<br />
The combination of similar lengths of downstroke for the Yod and Vav here and a badly faded text preclude any confident conclusion as to the identity of the offending letter. However, the best available test above appears to favor Yod over Vav. <br />
<br />
The credibility of Peter Flint on this issue is thus impeached and his related conclusions would carry relatively little weight as a supposed authority.<br />
<br />
Here's an "enhanced" photo available on the Internet and commonly used by Apologists:<br />
<br />
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7288/nachal2mj.jpg<br />
<br />
Here's a portion of the enhanced photo above:<br />
<br />
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8489/vav8ts.jpg<br />
<br />
Note that in this photo, for the word following the offended word, ''YDY'', the first Yod is noticably shorter than the Daled. However, the same Yod in the unenhanced photo has a downstroke which is the same length as the downstroke of the following Daled. Similarly, in the enhanced photo, the final Yod of ''YDY'' looks to be shorter than the preceding Daled yet in the unenhanced photo the downstroke of this Yod is actually longer than the downstroke of the preceding Daled. I'll post a photo later showing a comparison of the offending lions in the enhanced Verses unenhanced photos.<br />
<br />
Also note that in the photo above for the final visible letter which is a Yod, the downstroke of this Yod looks to be a little longer than the downstroke of the preceding Bet. I'll present more photos supporting this quality of this Scroll, that final Yods are sometimes a little longer which creates further uncertainty as to the determination of the offending letter.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 09:15, 11 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
<br />
=======Professional Commentary=======<br />
<br />
Strawn:<br />
<br />
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/440/4471do5.jpg<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 11:15, 28 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
======Meaning Of Words======<br />
<br />
1) K)RW = Unknown word. In writings of this time Alephs, ")", were sometimes added for pronounciation purposes yet the related Scroll at NH shows no examples of this orthography. Thus the NH reading ''K)RY/W'', is evidence against the Apologist argument of "they pierced" as Apologists generally argue for a root of KRW which means "to dig".<br />
<br />
<br />
====Commentary====<br />
<br />
===Context===<br />
<br />
[[Psalms 22]]<br />
<br />
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [Why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my groaning?<br />
<br />
O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou answerest not; And in the night season, and am not silent.<br />
<br />
But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.<br />
<br />
Our fathers trusted in thee: They trusted, and thou didst deliver them.<br />
<br />
They cried unto thee, and were delivered: They trusted in thee, and were not put to shame.<br />
<br />
But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people.<br />
<br />
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying],<br />
<br />
Commit [thyself] unto Jehovah; Let him deliver him: Let him rescue him, seeing he delighteth in him.<br />
<br />
But thou art he that took me out of the womb; Thou didst make me trust [when I was] upon my mother`s breasts.<br />
<br />
I was cast upon thee from the womb; Thou art my God since my mother bare me.<br />
<br />
Be not far from me; for trouble is near; For there is none to help.<br />
<br />
Many bulls have compassed me; Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.<br />
<br />
They gape upon me with their mouth, [As] a ravening and a roaring lion.<br />
<br />
I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.<br />
<br />
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.<br />
<br />
For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.<br />
<br />
I may count all my bones; They look and stare upon me.<br />
<br />
They part my garments among them, And upon my vesture do they cast lots.<br />
<br />
But be not thou far off, O Jehovah: O thou my succor, haste thee to help me.<br />
<br />
Deliver my soul from the sword, My darling from the power of the dog.<br />
<br />
Save me from the lion`s mouth; Yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen thou hast answered me." <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
====Grammar====<br />
<br />
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7777/psalm1145zm3.png" <br />
<br />
<br />
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4140/exodus338uv2.png<br />
<br />
<br />
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/8272/1kings196eb9.png<br />
<br />
<br />
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1718/psalm301zl9.png<br />
<br />
<br />
====Psalm 17====<br />
<br />
[[Psalms 17]]<br />
<br />
"Hear the right, O Jehovah, attend unto my cry; Give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.<br />
<br />
Let my sentence come forth from thy presence; Let thine eyes look upon equity.<br />
<br />
Thou hast proved my heart; thou hast visited me in the night; Thou hast tried me, and findest nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.<br />
<br />
As for the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the ways of the violent.<br />
<br />
My steps have held fast to thy paths, My feet have not slipped.<br />
<br />
I have called upon thee, for thou wilt answer me, O God: Incline thine ear unto me, [and] hear my speech.<br />
<br />
Show thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them that take refuge [in thee ]From those that rise up [against them].<br />
<br />
Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me under the shadow of thy wings,<br />
<br />
From the '''wicked''' that oppress me, My deadly '''enemies''', that '''compass''' me about.<br />
<br />
They are inclosed in their own fat: With their '''mouth''' they speak proudly.<br />
<br />
They have now compassed us in our steps; They set their eyes to cast [us] down to the earth.<br />
<br />
He is '''like a lion''' that is greedy of his prey, And as it were a young lion lurking in secret places.<br />
<br />
Arise, O Jehovah, Confront him, cast him down: Deliver my soul from the wicked by thy sword;<br />
<br />
From men by thy hand, O Jehovah, From men of the world, whose portion is in [this] life, And whose belly thou fillest with thy treasure: They are satisfied with children, And leave the rest of their substance to their babes.<br />
<br />
As for me, I shall behold thy face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with [beholding] thy form."<br />
<br />
===Translations Textual Evidence===<br />
<br />
<br />
====Aramaic Textual Evidence====<br />
<br />
<br />
====Greek Textual Evidence====<br />
<br />
1) General - Translated Textual evidence is relatively poor evidence for the original text as the Translator is forced to choose a '''different''' word which creates fertile ground for Bias in selecting between Alternatives.<br />
<br />
2) Greek is unrelated to Hebrew which compounds the problem with 1)<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 11:59, 11 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
3) Extant Greek translations appear to be '''Unofficial''' translations as there is no evidence that there was ever any Official Jewish translation of Psalm 22 into Greek.<br />
<br />
<br />
1) No Gospel author makes notice of a "they have pierced" translation for 22:17.<br />
<br />
<br />
TRANSLATOR, n. <br />
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said. <br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 11:35, 10 Sep 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Response to "Con" piece:''' There are only two occurrences of Psalm 22:16 in the Dead Sea Scrolls. In one, 4QPsf, the relevant word is illegible. The other, 5/6HevPs, has the ''kaaru'' form already given (the middle row on the table). So this still leaves the apologist trying to argue that this is a variant form of ''karu'' and distorting "dig" to "pierce": nothing has changed. Caution is advised when accepting claims from Evangelical sources at face value. --[[User:Robert Stevens|Robert Stevens]] 09:09, 12 Sep 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
==Con==<br />
<br />
'''Response to an earlier version of J. H.'s first section which contained only Masoretic data (before DSS material was added):'''<br />
<br />
"The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English, edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint and Eugene Charles Ulrich contains a footnote on the Psalm 22 fragment from the Dead Sea, which affirms that unlike the later Masoretic text, the Dead Sea fragment of Ps 22:16 cannot be taken as "like a lion my hands and feet" (whatever that may mean) but can only mean "they pierced my hands and my feet." If this is correct, since the Dead Sea fragment is roughly over 900 years older than the oldest extant witness of the Masoretic text, the case that that the latter is not the original reading has essentially collapsed." -sirhemlock@yahoo.com<br />
<br />
(Note: the above response was made before information from Nahal Hever and other DSS texts were added to Pro)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Response to Robert Stevens' "Response to the Con Piece":'''<br />
<br />
1. Quotation from Abegg, Flint, and Ulrich, ''op cit'' on Ps 22:16/DSS: "Psalm 22 is a favorite among Christians since it is often linked in the New Testament with the suffering and death of Jesus. A well-known and controversial reading is found in verse 16, where the Masoretic Text reads 'Like a lion are my hands and feet,' whereas the Septuagint has 'They have pierced my hands and feet.' Among the scrolls the reading in question is found only in the Psalms scroll found at Nahal Hever (abbreviated 5/6HevPs), which reads 'They have pierced my hands and my feet'"!" (p. 519; exclamation mark theirs).<br />
<br />
2. As a matter of fact, Eugene Ulrich is probably the top Dead Sea Scroll scholar ''in the world'' (he headed the editing the Qumran scolls!!). A simple google search on Eugene Ulrich alone should suffice to set this matter to rest (or cf. the bibliography in O'Brien, John A, "Publications by Eugene Ulrich," in ''Studies in the Hebrew Bible, Qumran, and the Septuagint Presented to Eugene Ulrich'', eds. Peter W. Flint, Emanuel Tov, and James C. VanderKam, xi-xxv. ''Supplements to Vetus Testamentum'' 101). His co-editors are top-shelf scholars with worldwide recognition as well. If we are weighing <br />
evidence concerning whether a particular writer is more of an "amateur apologist" or a world class scholar, there can be little doubt that Robert Stevens fits the former description as well as Eugene Ulrich fits the latter (there's nothing wrong with being an amateur apologist ''per se'', of course, and I mean absolutely no disrespect, but let's be honest about who's who). There is in fact no scholar of the Hebrew Bible or the Dead Sea Scrolls in the world with better credentials than Ulrich. <br />
<br />
3. Evangelical scholarship is ''ipso facto'' suspect and should be verified? (logical fallacy of "poisoning the well"). Some evangelicals might consider any and all skeptical scholarship ''ipso facto'' suspect, but they would be as wrong as Robert Stevens is. Scholarship is not suspect merely on the basis of who wrote it, but on the basis of the ideas contained therein. -sirhemlock@yahoo.com<br />
<br />
<br />
('''Note: "Second Disputed Con Post" (re. Nahal Hever and Dr. Peter W. Flint) has been moved temporarily by Pro to the bottom of Neutral<br />
''')<br />
<br />
==Neutral==<br />
<br />
<br />
==="Piercing"===<br />
<br />
Note that the Christian polemically desired "piercing" is a supposed proof-text because of the supposed specific action of "piercing" to the supposed crucifixion. Yet we can be certain that historically there was no "piercing" of hands in a crucifixion.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 09:30, 18 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
<br />
===Movement Of Proposed Con Argument===<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
The following has been moved from the Con section to the Neutral section because it contains False statements which I have listed following it:<br />
<br />
<br />
"[[The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English]]<br />
edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint and Eugene Charles Ulrich contains a footnote on the Psalm 22 fragment from the Dead Sea, which affirms that unlike the later Masoretic text which can be understood two possible ways, the Dead Sea fragment of Ps 22:16 ''cannot'' be taken as "like a lion my hands and feet" (whatever that may mean) but can only mean "they pierced my hands and my feet." Since the Dead Sea fragment is over 1000 years older than the Masoretic text, the case that this is not the original reading has essentially collapsed. -sirhemlock@yahoo.com"<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
The reason the above was moved from Con to Neutral is because it contains the following False statements:<br />
<br />
"the Psalm 22 fragment from the Dead Sea, which affirms that unlike the later Masoretic text which can be understood two possible ways, the Dead Sea fragment of Ps 22:16 ''cannot'' be taken as "like a lion my hands and feet" (whatever that may mean) but can only mean "they pierced my hands and my feet." Since the Dead Sea fragment is over 1000 years older than the Masoretic text, the case that this is not the original reading has essentially collapsed."<br />
<br />
: - the Masoretic reading is clearly "like a lion".<br />
<br />
: - the Nahal Hever fragment can not mean "they pierced my hands and my feet."<br />
<br />
: - the Dead Sea fragment is not over 1000 years older than the Masoretic text.<br />
<br />
: - the Nahal Hever fragment does not prove that "they pierced my hands and my feet" is the original reading.<br />
<br />
sirhemlock, if you rewrite the above to indicate that any/all of your assertions are your opinion or even the opinion of others you may be able to put some or all of it back in the Con section as long as you meet a minimum standard of reasonableness. As it stands your assertions above would easily be demonstrated to be False. Alternatively, you can try to present arguments to support your assertions to get it back in the Con section.<br />
<br />
You have until 11-13-06 to redo it. At that time I will consider further downgrading the above to the related Talk Page.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 10:18, 5 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
===Response by sirhemlock@yahoo.com:===<br />
<br />
Greetings. I have proposed an amended con below, after a few brief comments for Pro's consideration.<br />
<br />
1. "...the Dead Sea OT fragments are over 1000 years older than the Masoretic text." Whose error? The earliest extant mss. of the Masoretic text dates circa 1000 A. D. (Kittel dated it c. 1008-1009 A. D. in the introduction to ''Biblica Hebraica Stuttgartensia'', which was used in the Pro piece). It is common knowledge that the Dead Sea fragments are over 1000 years older than the Masoretic text, e.g. "The mid-twentieth century discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has revolutionized the study of the text of the OT, since they included many biblical manuscripts that were more than a thousand years older than the earliest extant copies of the Masoretic text" (A. Wolters, "Text and Textual Criticism," in Bill T. Arnold and H. G. M. Williamson, Eds., ''Dictionary of the Old Testament Historical Books: A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship'' (2005), p. 955. Pro has "asserted," but not demonstrated or documentated, the contrary to this consensus viewpoint of contemporary textual criticism. Nevertheless, I have proposed a slight alteration of my original quote pertaining to this matter, in particular since the fragment in question arguably may date between circa 70-135 A. D.<br />
<br />
2. Pro maintains "if you rewrite the above to indicate that any/all of your assertions are your opinion or even the opinion of others you may be able to put some or all of it back in the Con section." I did indicate most of what was stated was the conclusion of Ulrich, et al by saying "''The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English'', edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint and Eugene Charles Ulrich contains a footnote on the Psalm 22 fragment from the Dead Sea, “Vav and yod are usually distinguished, with vav generally longer than yod.” (Peter Flint). which affirms..." however I do agree that the phrase "that unlike the later Masoretic text which can be understood two possible ways..." is contra what was affirmed in Pro without documentation of that fact. This, I think, is arguable, but in lieu of presentation of said argument I certainly have no immediate objection to deleting the clause for now (see proposed alteration below). <br />
<br />
3. As it stands so far I have for the most part merely reported the conclusions of others. It is Ulrich et al which states "Among the scrolls the reading in question is found only in the Psalms scroll found at Nahal Hever (abbreviated 5/6HevPs), which reads 'They have pierced my hands and my feet'"!" ("The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English, edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint and Eugene Charles Ulrichp, 519; exclamation mark theirs). The authors cited were not "apologists" (cf. Pro's citation from "Rejection of Pascal's Wager" website!!!). It seems to this author that Ulrich, the world's leading authority on the Dead Sea Scrolls, is a more competent and trustworthy authority than the "Rejection of Pascal's Wager" website, however let me state emphatically, for the record, this is only "in my humble opinion").<br />
<br />
4. If Pro wishes to argue with Ulrich et al, this is to be welcomed and commended, however it does not seem reasonable to disallow reference to their statement merely because Pro disagrees with it (Pro: "the Nahal Hever fragment can not mean 'they pierced my hands and my feet.'"). I don't think this is what Pro intends, however. No doubt the citation of Ulrich et al will become prominent to future debate; it would be helpful to all concerned to air intelligent debate about it. <br />
<br />
SUMMARY: I would propose the following rewording of the Con piece:<br />
<br />
"''The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English,'' edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint and Eugene Charles Ulrich contains a footnote on the Psalm 22 fragment from the Dead Sea, which affirms that unlike the later Masoretic text, the Dead Sea fragment of Ps 22:16 cannot be taken as "like a lion my hands and feet" (whatever that may mean) but can only mean "they pierced my hands and my feet." If this is correct, since the Dead Sea fragment is roughly over 900 years older than the oldest extant witness of the Masoretic text, the case that that the latter is not the original reading has essentially collapsed." <br />
<br />
(note the latter sentence does not claim the Nahal Hever fragment ''proves'' "they pierced my hands and my feet" is the original reading, but only that ''the case that it could not be'', if Ulrich et al are correct, has essentially collapsed).<br />
<br />
Insertions and deletions for the proposed changes:<br />
<br />
A. Note deletion of the phrase "which can be understood two possible ways" re. the MT reading. I may defend this claim exegetically in the future, but in lieu of said defense I have no objection to deleting it for now. <br />
<br />
B. Note proposed insertions, here in bold for clarity: <br />
"The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English, edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint and Eugene Charles Ulrich contains a footnote on the Psalm 22 fragment from the Dead Sea, which affirms that unlike the later Masoretic text '''[deletion was here]''', the Dead Sea fragment of Ps 22:16 cannot be taken as "like a lion my hands and feet" (whatever that may mean) but can only mean "they pierced my hands and my feet." '''If this is correct''', since the Dead Sea fragment is '''roughly''' over '''900''' years older than '''the oldest extant witness of''' the Masoretic text, the case that that the latter is not the original reading has essentially collapsed. <br />
<br />
C. The image of 5/6HevPs is a quite useful addition to this thread, although the resolution is not the best. My complements! I may interact with you on the exegesis of 5/6HevPs at a later time if we can resolve these preliminary issues which have been raised. Respectfully, -sirhemlock@yahoo.com<br />
<br />
P.S. If possible, could you provide a page reference for the textual apparatus information in ''Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia'' cited in Pro above? I didn't see it on p. 1104 of my copy (under Ps 22:16). If no objections are posted to my rewrite, I will assume a green light to move it back to Con and will do so on 11-13-06. Thanks, sirhemlock<br />
<br />
<br />
Excellent compliance Sir. You are welcome to post the above to the Con section now. I prophecy that we are going to get along fine.<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 08:27, 6 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
Thanks, Joe, for your shrewd observations and fair editorial treatment. I plan to move the post back, but it needs a little tweaking since the pro section is different than it was when I originally posted. Thanks and compliments again and looking forward to a satisfying and thought-provoking interchange. -SH (P.S., feel free to email me on any issue about my posts or anything else; I'll try to address any of your concerns in a timely fashion). -SH<br />
<br />
<br />
JW:<br />
Sir, I've moved all of your latest effort to Neutral. Anyone who thinks the Yods of this Scroll at NH are half the size of Vavs doesn't know what they are talking about. I think very little of Peter Flint and haven't even given the worst evidence against him yet but even he would never make this half-alephed argument. It's clear in the picture I posted, which is a scan of DJD, that the Yods and Vavs are close to the same length. Your "enchanced" photos are not representative of DJD. I'll post more scans from DJD showing this. The offending fragment is held by a private collector and I've never seen any evidence that Flint ever looked at the original. <br />
<br />
Since you are either using very bad sources or making things up just post to Neutral here until I approve it for Con. <br />
<br />
Just your luck Sir, I Am afraid that Peter Flint is no longer the world's foremost authority on 22:17 (I think you are going to need some help here).<br />
<br />
--[[User:JoeWallack|JoeWallack]] 22:13, 7 Nov 2006 (CST)<br />
<br />
===Second Response by sirhemlock@yahoo.com (second disputed Con post has been temporarily moved to the discussion page===<br />
<br />
sirhemlock to JW: Greetings.<br />
All yods are not half the size of vavs, on that we would certainly agree. But the yods next to the offending letter are, half the size of the offending letter. Peter Flint does and did make this half-vaved argument.<br />
<br />
You are correct about yods and vavs generally: all of the former are indeed not half the size of the latter. However when a specific yod and a specific vav are right next to one another adjacently, and one IS actually half the size of the other, their identity is quite clear: “Vav and yod are usually distinguished, with vav generally longer than yod.” (Peter Flint). <br />
<br />
The main point of my post is that the last letter of KARU, a vav according to Flint et al, is twice the length of the letter to its immediate left, which is a yod. If both of these letters are a yod, as Pro maintains, it at least seems odd that the “offending” letter is twice the size of the yod right next to it. If Flint is right that “vav and yod are usually distinguished, with vav generally longer than yod,.” this difference is decisive, as Flint maintains with a high degree of certainty. The last letter of KARU is considerably longer than the yods right adjacent to it. <br />
<br />
I look forward to the scans. A close look at the “offending word” and the word to its immediate left are imperative to this issue. If your scans look better, I’ll gladly delete mine. No problem there. Ultimately, however, the reader must consult Flint’s section of the DJD; electronic images which I have seen do no provide sufficient clarity without enhancement, although perhaps you know of an exception. <br />
<br />
I find some of Pro’s criticisms quite hard to believe, nevertheless I will gladly amend accordingly in lieu of vigorous documentation (to be posted at a later date, and (2) all issues specified above will be deleted until documented. <br />
<br />
Pro, with due respect, I think you are assuming whenever you have a good point that Con could not conceivably have a counterargument. You do not want undocumented opinions in the Con section, but you state personal opinions which are quite controversial in the Pro section without documentation yourself, or you document them with references such as Rejection of Pascal, which denies the Masoretic text is over a thousand years later than the DSS (no competent scholar would agree with RPW there), provides references to a textual apparatus that are not in the actual book they are said to be in, makes dogmatic philological assertions with no documentation, among other eggregarious errors. I don’t mean this to be disparaging; I think if this debate is tightened on both ends this page might end up as something worth reading.<br />
<br />
[sirhemlock note: JH has since modified his discussion of Flint from what I responded to below; I believe them to be much better now although I still do not entirely agree. But Pro deserves compliments for the changes he has made]<br />
<br />
Example: Pro maintains Flint, a recognized top world authority on Herodian Hebrew and the Scroll in question, doesn’t know what he’s talking about regarding yods and vavs, yet no documentation or authority –at least as it currently stands in the text- other than Pro’s own opinion, and perhaps the opinion of Rejection Of Pascal is provided. With due respect to Pro, it seems reasonable to opine that documentation, not just expression of personal opinion, is desirable on the Pro side as well as the Con. Perhaps Pro is right and Peter W. Flint is just plain stupid about Hebrew letters. He just doesn’t get it like Pro does. This still requires demonstration rather than mere assertion, and some kind of “authority” other than Pro’s feelings. Lucky for Flint that Oxford University hasn’t realized Flint’s credibility as a scholar has been so severely “impeached” by Pro; he’s still scheduled to edit the Isaiah Scroll. Let’s hope for Flint’s sake Oxford doesn’t stumble across Pro’s post! I hope Pro doesn’t take this as an offensive comment; Con is just trying to do what Con is supposed to do! Defend a contrarian perspective! There seems to be something paradoxical about Pro’s plan to use DJD to refute Peter Flint, who edited 25 of the scrolls in that volume, including the scroll in question here. I respect Flint immensely as a scholar as do most contemporary scholars, and I feel he is being slighted undeservedly here. If Con is wrong and states something wrong, Pro will look all the more better. If Pro disallows Con to speak anything at all that Pro does not think is wrong, then Con in the final analysis is reduced to Pro, and the Con, such as it can exist in this forum at all, is in name only. <br />
<br />
This having been said, I take all criticism to heart, and I will amend the material version for Pro’s consideration with careful attention to each and every concern which has been raised. I’ll try to repost the material below in a more acceptable form by Nov 10 [update: amendments have been made -SH]. And by the way, my wife tells me I need some kind of serious help all the time; I’m used to it! But here my only help is you, Pro, and any insight you wish to proffer will be heartily and gratefully welcomed. <br />
-sirhemlock@yahoo.com<br />
<br />
P. S. sirhemlock is also quite curious about something: if all of the arguments currently in the Pro section were actually correct, what specific error would this entail in the Biblical text itself? Would this result in a formal contradiction somewhere? Where? For the Pro section to be ''Pro-Error'', it is desirable that the error which would result should be specified. If no error is specified, it seems the whole Pro section qualifies to be moved to the Con or Neutral area even as it stands!<br />
<br />
Personal note to J. W.: Agree or disagree, I feel quite strongly that all of your criticisms have been invaluable in improving my posts; you have my gratitude sir. <br />
<br />
Son of Men Working! Providence has provided? Half-alephed argument!! ROFL... You have a very dry wit JW.<br />
<br />
'''Peter W. Flint: A Brief Bibliography'''<br />
Dr. Peter W. Flint edited over 25 Dead Sea Scrolls for three volumes in the internationally acclaimed ''Discoveries in the Judaean Desert'' (Oxford University Press), edited by Emanuel Tov, the principle official edition of the scrolls, including the ''DJD'' fragment posted above. Flint’s work ''The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls'' (HarperCollins, 2003), co-authored with James VanderKam, won the award for ''Best Book Relating to the Hebrew Bible'' for 2003 from the Biblical Archaeology Society in Washington, DC. This work is used in many university courses on the Dead Sea Scrolls as a textbook. He served as Editor of the major two-volume collection ''The Dead Sea Scrolls After Fifty Years: A Comprehensive Assessment'' (E. J. Brill, 1998-1999). Dr. Flint serves as a General Editor of one series on the Old Testament: ''The Formation and Interpretation of Old Testament Literature'' (E. J. Brill), as well as two series on the Dead Sea Scrolls: ''Studies in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Related Literature''; and the ''Eerdmans Commentaries on the Dead Sea Scrolls''. He authored ''The Dead Sea Psalms Scrolls and the Book of Psalms'' (E. J. Brill, 1997), ''The Bible at Qumran: Text, Shape, and Interpretation'' (Eerdmans, 2001), co-authored the ''Dead Sea Scrolls Bible'' (San Francisco, CA: Harper, 1999), was coeditor, with Craig A. Evans, of ''Eschatology, Messianism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997).<br />
<br />
The following text has been partially amended. Any thoughts would be appreciated. -Thanks, SH.<br />
<br />
<br />
If no objections are posted to my rewrite, I will assume a green light to move it back to Con and will do so on 11-16-06. Thanks, sirhemlock<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
'''NOTE: SECOND DISPUTED CON POST HAS BEEN TEMPORARILY MOVED TO THE DISCUSSION PAGE'''<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Psa&chapter=22&verse=16&version=rsv RSV]<br />
*[http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=psalms%2022:16;&version=31; NIV]<br />
*[http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm22.htm NAB]<br />
*[http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Psalms&chapter=22&verse=16 Zhubert]<br />
*[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Psalms+22.16 Perseus]<br />
*[http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Psalms_Chapter_22,_Verse_16 BibleWiki]<br />
<br />
*[http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/TC-translit.html Hebrew Transliteration Table]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/hebrewconversion.html Hebrew Conversion Table]</div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Acts&diff=49704Acts2010-11-17T22:17:20Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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</div></div>Ohuxanizapuhttp://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Joel&diff=49703Joel2010-11-17T22:17:16Z<p>Ohuxanizapu: </p>
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