Mark 15:34

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And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (ASV)

Contents

Pro

The dying words of Jesus

Mark 15:34-37

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elijah.

And one ran, and filling a sponge full of vinegar, put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let be; let us see whether Elijah cometh to take him down.

And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost."


Matthew 27:46-50

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And some of them stood there, when they heard it, said, This man calleth Elijah.

And straightway one of them ran, and took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

And the rest said, Let be; let us see whether Elijah cometh to save him.

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit."


Luke 23:46

"And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost."


John 19:30

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit."


So, what did Jesus say?

--FreezBee 06:58, 6 Feb 2006 (CST)

Edited --JoeWallack 09:39, 24 Nov 2006 (CST)


Translation of ???????????, "Forsaken" vs. "left Behind"

You Put The Words Right Into My Mouth

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (ASV)

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Mark&chapter=15&verse=34

??? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????????? ? ????? ???????????????? ? ???? ??? ? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??????????? ??


JW:

Ehrancyman points out that the word ???????????, which is commonly translated in Christian Bibles as "forsaken", has a more literal meaning of " left behind " (gives the "Left Behind" trilogy a holey new meaning) and explains that the Gnostics took this as solid evidence that Jesus and Christ were two separate entities. As further support Ehrancyman Lets The Reader Understand that:

1) The Gospel of Philip adds:

"It was on the cross that he said these words , for it was there that he was divided."

2) The Gospel of Peter sez:

"My power, O power, you have left me."

3) Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "lyons") confesses to us that the Valentinians used the verse to show that Jesus on the cross mirrored The Tragedy of the Divine realm where Sophia was Separated from the Pleroma (Doherty, look out!).

4) Ehrman points out that in significant elements of the Western text the Corruption:

"My God, my God, why have you reviled me?"

exists.

JW:

Here's the relevant Metzger:

"15.34  ??????????? ?? {B}

It is perhaps more likely that copyists should have altered ??????????? ?? to agree with the Matthean reading ?? ??????????? (Mt 27.46), than that they should have changed ?? ??????????? to ??????????? ?? to agree with the Septuagint of Ps 22.2.

The reading of Dgr (supported by a few other Western witnesses?2?) ????????? ?? (“[Why] hast thou reproached [or, taunted] me?”) may have been substituted for the usual reading by someone who could not understand how God would have forsaken Jesus on the cross."

Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. 1994. A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition; a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) . United Bible Societies: London; New York


JW:

So in Summary, in the original Gospel "Mark", we have support for Separationist Theology at the Start of Jesus' career (Baptism) and at the End of Jesus' supposed career (Crucifixtion) as well as Orthodox Corruption of this support in reaction to perceived textual support for Gnostics.


EDITOR, n. A person who combines the judicial functions of Minos, Rhadamanthus and Aeacus, but is placable with an obolus; a severely virtuous censor, but so charitable withal that he tolerates the virtues of others and the vices of himself; who flings about him the splintering lightning and sturdy thunders of admonition till he resembles a bunch of firecrackers petulantly uttering his mind at the tail of a dog; then straightway murmurs a mild, melodious lay, soft as the cooing of a donkey intoning its prayer to the evening star. Master of mysteries and lord of law, high-pinnacled upon the throne of thought, his face suffused with the dim splendors of the Transfiguration, his legs intertwisted and his tongue a-cheek, the editor spills his will along the paper and cuts it off in lengths to suit. And at intervals from behind the veil of the temple is heard the voice of the foreman demanding three inches of wit and six lines of religious meditation, or bidding him turn off the wisdom and whack up some pathos.

--JoeWallack 10:03, 31 Dec 2006 (CST)

Con

Pro does not indicate a contradiction. In asking the question, "What did Jesus say?" Pro merely indicates confusion. If Pro intends to suggest a contradiction, he should, as explicitly as possible, point out the contradiction.

Neutral

Edit this section to note miscellaneous facts.

"The Gospels record seven separate statements made by Jesus on the cross. There is no overt contradiction between the statements. Jesus could easily have said all of them and one possibility is that He did say all of them. Nothing prevents this outcome. The only possible problem is the lack of clarity as to which was the last of those seven statements."
"Both Matthew and Mark tell us that Jesus said, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" after which he is offered sour wine and then cries out before dying. So, in response to PRO's question, "What did Jesus say?", we conclude that Jesus said, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" after which he receives the sour wine and cries out again. Thus, these two statements are clearly separated by the offering of sour wine to Jesus.

The issue seems to concern that which Jesus said after being offered the sour wine. John tells us that, after receiving the sour wine, Jesus said, "It is finished." Luke adds that Jesus then says, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit," and having said this, he died. Luke says that Jesus cried with a loud voice but does not tell us what Jesus cried. After this, Luke tells us that Jesus then said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit," after which, Luke tells us that He died. This would seem to be the very last words of Christ.

Consequently, we have this sequence of events and the words of Jesus.

1. Jesus says, ""Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

2. This prompts a person to offer Jesus sour wine whereupon he cries out again. From John, we might take Him to cry out "It is finished."

3. Now, in preparation for death, Jesus says, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit," and He then dies according to Luke.

The digression on "forsaken" seems pointless and out of place relative to the question posed in PRO."


Response

A comparison of just "Mark" and "Matthew" makes it clear that Jesus said different things at least based on the English translations at the exact same point in the Narratives. The attempted Con argument above is based only on Speculation and is not responsive to the Pro argument. Therefore, it does not meet the minimum reasonableness standards of ErrancyWiki.

--JoeWallack 09:52, 24 Nov 2006 (CST)

--JoeWallack 11:19, 27 Jan 2008 (CST)

I don't think it is implied that he said two different things at the same moment. One could argue just as easily that he made both statements in a short period of time, perhaps successively.

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