Matthew 1:3

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and Judah begat Perez and Zerah of Tamar; and Perez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram; (ASV)

Pro

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All ASV -

1:3 "...Hezron begat Ram; 1:4 and Ram begat Amminadab; and Amminadab begat Nahshon"

Per the Jewish Bible Hezron went to Egypt:

Genesis 46:8 "And these are the names of the children of Israel, who came into Egypt, Jacob and his sons: Reuben, Jacob`s first-born. And the sons of Reuben: Hanoch, and Pallu, and Hezron, and Carmi. And the sons of Simeon: Jemuel, and Jamin, and Ohad, and Jachin, and Zohar, and Shaul the son of a Canaanitish woman. And the sons of Levi: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. And the sons of Judah: Er, and Onan, and Shelah, and Perez, and Zerah; but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan. And the sons of Perez were Hezron and Hamul."

Per the Jewish Bible Amminadab was part of the Exodus from Egypt:

Numbers 1:1 "And Jehovah spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers` houses, according to the number of the names, every male, by their polls; Numbers 1:3 from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel, thou and Aaron shall number them by their hosts. Numbers 1:4 And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of his fathers` house. Numbers 1:5 And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you. Of Reuben: Elizur the son of Shedeur. Numbers 1:6 Of Simeon: Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Numbers 1:7 Of Judah: Nahshon the son of Amminadab."

Per the Jewish Bible the Stay in Egypt was 430 years:

Exodus 12:40 "Now the time that the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years."

So "Matthew" has 4 generations (Hezron, Ram, Amminadab and Nahshon) in his Genealogy for a time period that according to the Jewish Bible was well over 430 years.

In addition to the Specific problem here there is also the General problem that "Matthew" did not Critically check his Sources for Errors.


--JoeWallack 09:03, 18 Jan 2006 (CST)

Con

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Neutral

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JW: I think this would be a good time to consider the following:

JUDAS


The English

"and Judah begat Perez and Zerah of Tamar; and Perez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram; (ASV)"


The Greek

"?????? ?? ????????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????????? ??? ????"

"??????" (JUDAS), first word on the left.


The Textual Variation

None


The Luke

"?????" (Judah)


The LXX

"??????" (Judas)


The Hebrew

"?????????" (Judah)


The JW

Note that there is only one underlying Hebrew name here,"?????????" (Judah). There is actually only one related Greek name as well. "??????" is the Greek name while "?????" is just the Greek genitive form for "??????". So "Judah" is the English transliteration for the Hebrew "?????????" and "Judas" is the English transliteration for the Greek "??????". Translation confusion is caused by a tendency for translators to use the English "Judah" when referring to the Jewish Bible Judah and use the English "Judas" when referring to a Christian Bible only character.

Let's take a look at the Jewish Bible Judah: (ASV)

"And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt.

Genesis 37:26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother and conceal his blood?

Genesis 37:27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother, our flesh. And his brethren hearkened unto him.

Genesis 37:28 And there passed by Midianites, merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. And they brought Joseph into Egypt.

Genesis 37:29 And Reuben returned unto the pit; and, behold, Joseph was not in the pit; and he rent his clothes.

Genesis 37:30 And he returned unto his brethren, and said, The child is not; and I, whither shall I go?

Genesis 37:31 And they took Joseph`s coat, and killed a he-goat, and dipped the coat in the blood;"


JW: Lots of interesting parallels here to the supposed Last Supper. Note especially:

"And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother and conceal his blood?

Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother, our flesh. And his brethren hearkened unto him.

And there passed by Midianites, merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver."


JW: Now let's look at how each Gospeller treats the potential parallel in the supposed Last Supper story: (ASV)

"Mark" likely writing first:

"And Judas Iscariot, he that was one of the twelve, went away unto the chief priests, that he might deliver him unto them.

And they, when they heard it, were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently deliver him [unto them]."

"Matthew":

"Then one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

and said, What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they weighed unto him thirty pieces of silver."

"Luke":

"And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

And he went away, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might deliver him unto them.

And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money."


JW: Observe that only "Matthew" identifies pieces of silver in his Christian Bible betrayal story thereby providing an interesting parallel to the Jewish Bible betrayal story.

Let me also throw in a quote of the Vorks site:

http://users2.ev1.net/%7Eturton/GMark/GMark_index.html

"Weeden summarizes Shelby Spong's arguments for OT creation:

"....Among the interesting parallels between the two biblical stories Spong notes are the following (267): (1) Joseph was handed over "by a group of twelve who later became known as the leaders of the twelve tribes of Israel," (2) in "both stories [the story of Joseph and the story of Jesus] the handing over or betrayal was into the hands of gentiles,' (3) in "both stories money was given to the traitors- twenty pieces of silver for Joseph, thirty pieces of silver for Jesus," and (4) "one of the twelve brothers of Joseph who urged the others to seek money for their act of betrayal was named Judah or Judas (Gen. 3726-27)."

JW: So "Matthew" and his love of "Exodus, Staged Right" may have understood "Mark's" presentation of "Judas" as coming not from the High Priest but straight from the Jewish Bible Joseph/Egypt story as he alone appears to embellish with the twenty pieces of silver.

Also consider Matthew: (ASV)

13:55 "Is not this the carpenter`s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas?"

JW: "Matthew" following "Mark" also shows Judas/Judah as a brother of Jesus. Note that "Luke" doesn't.

Is it also just a coincidence that the narrator of all this information is:


Joseph

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